Is Progress the Social Tree to start with always?

[Leathaface]

I've yet to fire up Vox Populi but i'm watching Marbozir play on YouTube. On the social policy screen, it says "Progress is best for Civilizations which desire robust infrastructure and scientific advancement."

Science in Civ games is always very important. It lets you get more advanced troops quicker, lacking in Science could see you get taking over and obviously Science is important for Scientific victory.

If you were to choose Tradition would you fall behind? (I'm not a Warmonger so won't choose Authority)

 

[chicorbeef]

I'd recommend to try the mod, it's a lot of fun. You'll learn how to use the policy trees once you actually play. You're still thinking Vanilla "Science is King". It's not that simple anymore in VP, Culture/Religion/Production play much bigger roles (things cost a lot more, for example). Warmongering is not like Vanilla either.

All Ancient trees have baked in sources of Science by the way, Progress just has the most obvious and blunt Science effects.

I really mean it when I say just about everything in this mod is balanced. It's wonderful. Be warned, though, a lot of the things you learned in Vanilla will have to be unlearned, but after a game or two, you should get the hang of things.

 

[CrazyG]

No

 

[Moi Magnus]

Science in Civ games is always very important.

Not that much in VP.
The first advice we give to beginners is "focus culture and production", because that's better than focussing science and food.

If you focus too much science, you will quickly have some tech at short term (which can be handy for war), but chances are that you will fall behind in science in the long run.

 

[Galbias]

Progress is kind of my "default" first tree but not for Science in particular, it just has a lot of very generally useful bonuses that don't require much in the way of specific strategy to take advantage of. Tradition if you're going to be focusing on Specialists/going small and tall, Authority if you're planning on some early war, Progress otherwise.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Welcome, Leathaface, I hope you'll like Vox Populi and this community as well!

As for your question, you'll see that all three (Progress, Tradition, Authority) are very well balanced.

 

[Obezag]

I think somebody did a comparison between progress and tradition with 2 games both on turn 300. The 2 kinda broke even at that point in terms of science and culture, so I'd say progress only starts to showing its advantage in late games. (well progress received a small buff recently so that'll probably change the equation a bit)

 

[Owlbebach]

I think somebody did a comparison between progress and tradition with 2 games both on turn 300. The 2 kinda broke even at that point in terms of science and culture, so I'd say progress only starts to showing its advantage in late games. (well progress received a small buff recently so that'll probably change the equation a bit)

That should not be right. Progress is by far better that Tradition in terms of science and culture long term. Maybe execution was wrong, cause Progress sure needs to have like 3-4 cities more than Tradition.

 

[Omen of Peace]

Science, certainly.
But do Progress' instant culture yields really measure up to Traditions constant bonuses + instant yields (+extra great works)? I would lean towards No (accounting for the +X % penalty for extra cities that Progress gets). But I should note that I play Small or Standard maps.

 

[Minh Le]

No, Trad > Progress in culture always

 

[CrazyG]

That should not be right. Progress is by far better that Tradition in terms of science and culture long term. Maybe execution was wrong, cause Progress sure needs to have like 3-4 cities more than Tradition.

Long term I really prefer tradition's culture. Science they both have their own advantages.

 

[Owlbebach]

No, Trad > Progress in culture always

Long term I really prefer tradition's culture. Science they both have their own advantages.

I don't think so. I mean long-term. Early game - sure, but over 300 turns i think Progress catches up and gets the lead. Tradition's culture does not scale, while Progress's culture for buildings becomes VERY powerful in Industrial and later. It becomes equal to at least 10 culture per city, while Tradition has 2 and 3 extra specialists

 

[CrazyG]

I don't think so. I mean long-term. Early game - sure, but over 300 turns i think Progress catches up and gets the lead. Tradition's culture does not scale, while Progress's culture for buildings becomes VERY powerful in Industrial and later. It becomes equal to at least 10 culture per city, while Tradition has 2 and 3 extra specialists

Tradition is getting a flat 4 culture per city, 6 in fresh water cities. Progress won't match this before industrial even when going really heavy in buildings. +10% culture in your capital is worth a lot by industrial era, its not just the extra specialists but the great works and other benefits too. An extra writer is a lot of extra culture. My fastest ideology unlocks have consistently been as tradition.

 

[Owlbebach]

Tradition is getting a flat 4 culture per city, 6 in fresh water cities. Progress won't match this before industrial even when going really heavy in buildings. +10% culture in your capital is worth a lot by industrial era, its not just the extra specialists but the great works and other benefits too. An extra writer is a lot of extra culture. My fastest ideology unlocks have consistently been as tradition.

Question is how much of this was due to Tradition and how much due to Artistry and synergy between them. Not sure about you, but in my case Tradition in 90% cases is followed by Artistry, while Progress is never followed by Artistry

 

[Minh Le]

Question is how much of this was due to Tradition and how much due to Artistry and synergy between them. Not sure about you, but in my case Tradition in 90% cases is followed by Artistry, while Progress is never followed by Artistry

Why Progress is never followed by Artistry? I always do that, Artistry fix the most obvious weakness of progress: Culture.

 

[CrazyG]

Question is how much of this was due to Tradition and how much due to Artistry and synergy between them. Not sure about you, but in my case Tradition in 90% cases is followed by Artistry, while Progress is never followed by Artistry

Take a look at the Celts shared photojournal. I did progress artistry, and I'm very confident that my save is doing better than the others (who took Fealty or Statecraft) are at turn 180.

 

[Jarula]

I always do beeline authority for the extra settler then go progress then finish authority... honestly best combo 6 or 7 cities with progress and authority then simply play practical. with progress and authority you get THE BEST versatility with culture gains and for the rest of the gain you are basically set up policy wise to succeed.

 

[neo_arcadia]

By "go progress" you mean just taking its opener? That's understandable for me. Or you mean taking like 3 or 4 progress policies? Now that's something I will not do lol.

 

[Owlbebach]

Why Progress is never followed by Artistry? I always do that, Artistry fix the most obvious weakness of progress: Culture.

But whats the point of it? In the middle of the game Progress struggles from lack of culture much less then in the early game. But what is more important - what is your victory condition then? If you play Progress i suppose you want to have more than 5-6 cities (on standard), playing Tourism does not look like a good idea. And Artistry sure can't be better then Fealty in Science.

Take a look at the Celts shared photojournal. I did progress artistry, and I'm very confident that my save is doing better than the others (who took Fealty or Statecraft) are at turn 180.

Celts is different. They are way too unique, general ideas and game plans do not apply to them. Also keep in mind that you are still (probably) one of two best players on this forum. You might be ahead simply because you did all other small things right

 

[tu_79]

If you play Progress i suppose you want to have more than 5-6 cities (on standard)

I think we discussed this, and G tweaked Progress so it was tall friendly too. The idea of tall Progress is using fast research for boosting culture. Flat bonuses are better for wide, but in Progress you get yields for building too, so a tall Progress has its 5-6 cities very well developed. The gold you save on buildings you can use it for units, envoys and such. So both Statecraft and Artistry are viable after tall Progress.