Is reloading cheating?

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Yes it is!

That doesn't mean it is wrong though. in GOTM it is, unless you just correct movement mistakes or say you plaaned to change production, got a call, then forgot to do the change when you came back and pressed enter......

 

[Sirp]

reloading to correct mistakes dealing with the game's interface (e.g. fat fingering a command) is fine. Reloading because you made a strategic or tactical error, because you weren't happy with a combat or other die-roll event and so forth is clearly cheating. I don't see how someone can derive enjoyment out of beating the game when one only does it by reloading every time they make a mistake, or don't like a result.

Reloading can be useful to go back and replay a game from a certain point to teach yourself what would happen if you had done things differently, but I wouldn't claim I had "won" doing that; it's just for the learning experience.

 

[TheNiceOne]

I don't see how someone can derive enjoyment out of beating the game when one only does it by reloading every time they make a mistake, or don't like a result.

Sirp, is it really that hard to understand that other people want something else than you for a gaming session? You want a game where every tactical error and bad luck counts. Other want a game where they can take chances and reload instead of being punished when they fail.

Its different goals and different ways of enjoying a game, but I fail to see that either is better. The former is clearly more competetive, and is the only that is ok when competing with other players. But as long as you're not competing with anyone than your own game noone should be looked down at for playing the way he/she finds most rewarding.

 

[warpstorm]

If you were playing a PBEM game of PTW and you reloaded to win all your battles, would that be cheating? Of course, it would.

 

[Pillager]

@TheNiceOne:

Because part of the game is interacting with the AI and with the map. If I reload because I don't like what a hut gave me, or because I've declared a war that is actually more difficult than I thought, then I'm not playing the 'game'.

The game is presented as it is, and to reload is not to accept the game, and is cheating.

As I said, there's a difference between a simple error of pressing the wrong button, and reloading the game to get a more favourable result from an action. If I actually were the leader of a civilisation, I couldn't just go back a few years to undo an error.

Also, if you reload everytime something deleterious happens, the result is not a true reflection of your ability to play the game.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Pillager, if you reload when you don't like what you get from a goody hut etc, then you're playing the game differently - but stating that you're not playing the game is pretty respectless of people that prefer a different playing style than you.

If this is so wrong, then why did Firaxis make it so much easier to get better results by reloading (adding the possibility of getting a new random seed when reloading)?

You are correct with one thing, the result is not a true reflection of your ability to play the game if you reload, but many people don't play to put their ability at test, they play to have fun and not be punished for mistakes.

What's wrong with that?

 

[dsirirueng]

Considering the amount of time I spend "in the arms" of the computer playing CIV3, and considering that reloading makes those sessions even LONGER ... I'd say my wife would consider it "cheating" ...

 

[TheNiceOne]

But if you tell your wife that by reloading after having lost battles, you don't need to rebuild your army, and is thus able to win faster, and can them come and spend time with her, don't you think she'll accept it then?

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne
Pillager, if you reload when you don't like what you get from a goody hut etc, then you're playing the game differently - but stating that you're not playing the game is pretty respectless of people that prefer a different playing style than you.

If this is so wrong, then why did Firaxis make it so much easier to get better results by reloading (adding the possibility of getting a new random seed when reloading)?

You are correct with one thing, the result is not a true reflection of your ability to play the game if you reload, but many people don't play to put their ability at test, they play to have fun and not be punished for mistakes.

What's wrong with that?

Firstly, I'm not being disrespectful of anyone. They can play the game however they like, unless we're playing GOTM, an SG, PBEM, etc. How they play their own games is up to them.

Secondly, Firaxis didn't add the possibility of better results in reloading. In Civ II, you could reload and the results would differ. What Firaxis have done for Civ III is to add the option to turn that off not on.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Pillager

Firstly, I'm not being disrespectful of anyone. They can play the game however they like, unless we're playing GOTM, an SG, PBEM, etc. How they play their own games is up to them.
I agree to this, but when you previously wrote "The game is presented as it is, and to reload is not to accept the game, and is cheating." I considered this disrespectful.

Secondly, Firaxis didn't add the possibility of better results in reloading. In Civ II, you could reload and the results would differ. What Firaxis have done for Civ III is to add the option to turn that off not on.
Actually, CIV3 came without any such options, and the results would always be the same after reloading because the random seed was saved. Then in one of the patches they added the option to turn it on or off. So it was after a patch it became possible to alter the result by reloading.

Whether the option is named on or off doesn't matter, but Firaxis deliberatley added the possibility to "cheat" by reloading after the game had been released.

 

[Pygzilla]

Of course it's cheating. If you can be satisfied with reloading to win or get a better result thats fine, but you did not actually win the level as programmed.

Personally I don't care,as long as you aren't playing against me. or posting for HOF or GOTM etc.

Most games have cheats bult in, but they are CHEATS. Obviously the programmers don't care or they would not have programmed them in.

Reloading to learn something, like "what happens if I lose the pyramids" is a whole different animal. Thats science.

 

[Pillager]

Originally posted by TheNiceOne

Firstly, I'm not being disrespectful of anyone. They can play the game however they like, unless we're playing GOTM, an SG, PBEM, etc. How they play their own games is up to them.
I agree to this, but when you previously wrote "The game is presented as it is, and to reload is not to accept the game, and is cheating." I considered this disrespectful.

Secondly, Firaxis didn't add the possibility of better results in reloading. In Civ II, you could reload and the results would differ. What Firaxis have done for Civ III is to add the option to turn that off not on.
Actually, CIV3 came without any such options, and the results would always be the same after reloading because the random seed was saved. Then in one of the patches they added the option to turn it on or off. So it was after a patch it became possible to alter the result by reloading.

Whether the option is named on or off doesn't matter, but Firaxis deliberatley added the possibility to "cheat" by reloading after the game had been released.

Fine. You can consider it disrepectful if you like. The fact is my opinion is that it is cheating, and I'm not going to change my opinion just because some others don't play it that way. I repeat, as long as people abide by the rules in all forms of MP, I don't mind how people play. Cheating the AI is very different from cheating another human player.

Secondly, I assume Firaxis have seen that some players like to reload. I consider it the wrong way to play, others don't have a problem. Ergo, Firaxis put in an option to satisfy both wishes. That's the best way. I sometimes reload to see how something would have developed if something else had or had not happened.
There are plenty of other options where there is not toggle box, so I think we should be pleased that in this case there is.

 

[Mad Bomber]

It depends on why you are reloading:

Starting a new gaming session, computer crashes, ect. are reasonable and should not be considered cheating.

reloading to get different results are cheating, whether its a bad battle, goody hut, trade, or war, these are not reasons to reload.

 

[DaDoo]

I play casually and I had reloaded the game to get a better result in battle from time to time. Considering I have only 1 hr/day at most to play, I do not have the luxury of time to march stacks of knights from one end of the world map to another just because the previous stack of 12 lost to 3 pikemen. Do I consider that cheating? Hardly.

If you guys are so concerned about the other player cheating while playing multiplayer, then play short games that doesn't need to be saved or play with people you trust.

 

[fingerbiter]

I voted that reloading is not cheating. First it is a way for new players to learn the game, by replaying a scenario over and over with slight differences (like moving a swordsman to the hill next to the city before attacking instead of attacking across a plain) and also to relieve the frustration of losing a tank to a spearman.

For experienced players, it gives the ability to undo a stupid mistake (like when you move your mouse on the grid, have it at the correct position and when you click the location changes to one of the adjoining squares due to drift --- arrg, I hate my mouse).

Personally, I used to reload often but now I only reload when my mouse give me trouble. I find that the game is more interesting to deal with bad combat results (my #1 reason for reloading when I was a newbie) or losing out on a wonder by one turn (my #2 reason).

 

[WillJ]

The only reason I reload is when I want to sell a tech to the AI, and I want to find out what is the richest civ, so I go into the "propose a deal" screen for each one of them, then click "never mind", and after I find out which civ has the most money I reload and sell the tech to that civ (and possibly to other civs, going in order of their wealth). I reload because I don't want to get them annoyed with me, and I do not consider it cheating, especially since I think you should always be able to easily see how wealthy the civs are, like in Civ 2, if I remember correctly.

 

[Mad Bomber]

Willj:

if I trade a tech, then I trade it to all the civ's unless I am using a civ as a vassal. Why not just get as much as you can for it & go on to the next civ? I do agree that more info should be available to you, esp if you have an embassy:Gold, gpt they are getting, tech they know & tech they are reasearching should all be availabe independent of diplomacy screen. Using a reload for this I would consider a minor cheat.

Fingerbiter:
Mouse errors are a definate reason for a reload, no shame there, nor is it a cheat if the player is experimenting, but in that case it should no longer be considered a played game. New players should also be considered as experimenting IMO. Reloading because you lost out on a wonder should be considered cheating!

DaDoo:
Reloading like this is a cheat, but if its just yourself, no harm done. Do not expect to do this in PTW however, or you will get a real REP hit!

 

[SirJethro]

Why is this thread necessary? Aside from GOTM and other instances where there are rules about reloading....who cares?

If you want to do it...if you want to play through your bad decisions, way to go. The thread has come and gone many times in the past, and it really serves no purpose. Just play the darn game.

To slightly change the topic...I like to drink beer while I play. Is that allowed during GOTM?

 

[sabo]

During the GOTM yes it is cheating, otherwise who friggin' cares?

 

[DaDoo]

SirJethro, I think you could get disqualified for PUI(playing under the influence)

mad bomber, if I do get around to play the multiplayer aspect of PTW, I'd probably only play short games(1hr or so) where saving will be unnecessary; No worries about people fudging their results that way