Is spying horribly unbalanced or what?

[Technetium]

I just recently got the expansion, and it's pretty cool for the most part. But I really don't like how stealing technology works.

The problem is not that stealing technology is too easy (even though it is).

The problem is also not that your reaching Renaissance era gives every country a spy (which makes no logical sense at all, they should each get their first spy when they reach Renaissance era).

The problem is that there is no appreciable penalty for stealing technology. I've been employing a "3 strikes" rule as such: first offense, I demand they stop (this lowers their friendliness toward me even though there's nothing dishonorable in such a request); second offense, I denounce them; 3rd offense, I declare war. But the diplomacy is weighted very unfairly in favor of the spying country and against the victimized country. If country A steals from country B, and then A talks to country C, C doesn't care that A was caught stealing technology from B; it has no effect on their level of friendliness toward A even though such a thing is a very good reason to be distrustful toward A. However, if B denounces A for stealing and the two countries had a pact of friendship, C will look unfavorably upon B for denouncing someone B had a friendship with, even though it was justified! And if B retaliates with a declaration of war, C will be more likely to regard B as a war-monger.

Civ 2 handled it better... catching a country stealing technology from you was a free declaration of war... had no impact on what other countries thought of you. Which makes sense because it's what they would do in the same situation.

My simple suggestion would be that a country caught spying should face enough of a diplomatic penalty that they are immediately denounced by many countries, not just the one stolen from. Furthermore, the victim country should be able to denounce (regardless of any pact of friendship) and declare war without any diplomatic penalties in dealing with other countries.

 

[Moriarte]

How about keeping a spy in your own capital at all times? By the time you get a second spy the first guy will get promoted to a superagent and you can send this superagent wherever you like, putting a new agent in his place. Soon enough you'll have control of key locations (capitals & CSs) with superspies in them. You pay the price of losing few technologies to AI, in the process you get more effective spies, which can get you more influence (and steal more techs). So, imo, it isn't horribly unbalanced.

Besides, there IS a penalty. A country loses a spy if he gets caught, receiving an unpromoted spy in return few turns later.

I do agree that justified denouncements option would be a fine addition. As of now this tool (denounciations) is most valuable when Alexander or Attila are around .

EDIT: And no, i don't think spying is such a big thing that countries should 'feel free' to start a war after the fact of espionage was uncovered.

 

[Peng Qi]

Why would you have a DoF with someone who is spying on you?

 

[Technetium]

I put my spy in the capital the minute I got him, and he is a superagent having killed a few spies already, but stuff still gets stolen. The problem is that I am the only country that other countries are trying to steal from (fairly sure of this because I've seen almost every country named in failed attempts, and they'd have to be trying on a regular basis to be getting through as often as they do). And there really isn't any point for me to send my own spies to their countries because they don't have any technology I don't have. The whole approach I have been taking in the current game is to be ahead in technology and win the space race. However I am not sure this strategy, which has been in the game since the beginning, is valid with spies as they currently are. The rate at which they are successfully stealing is going to catch up with the rate at which I am getting new technology, and eventually they will be equal to me because of spying. Basically, once everyone gets a spy, you might as well just stop researching and use your spy on the most advanced country as often as possible.

I don't really see trading a 3rd level spy for a 1st level spy that much of a penalty... it is still possible for a 1st level spy to steal from a city defended by a 3rd level spy with both a constabulary and a police station. And with all the other countries trying constantly they will get through a lot more often than I would like.

Basically, it's not really a penalty unless it would give a country a good reason NOT to do it. Right now there is basically no reason not to use spies offensively. If the country is behind technologically then they have no reason to use their spies defensively (who would steal from them?). There needs to be a real punishment for it that would cause some countries to decide that the risk of the spy getting caught is not worth trying.

I might also add that the fact that stealing from a country you have a pact of friendship with doesn't give you a HUGE hit in diplomacy with other countries (it doesn't give you any penalty as far as I am aware) is ridiculous.

 

[Technetium]

Why would you have a DoF with someone who is spying on you?

I had the declaration of friendship first. After the got their spy, they started spying on me while the declaration was still in effect. I denounced them for it and I'm the one that pays the diplomatic penalty. That's messed up!

 

[Moriarte]

I might also add that the fact that stealing from a country you have a pact of friendship with doesn't give you a HUGE hit in diplomacy with other countries (it doesn't give you any penalty as far as I am aware) is ridiculous.

That whole denounciation mechanic is making life harder for a player who wants justice, i understand your role - playing desires . But if you tweak it and AI steals less, you have to make sure AI is stronger somewhere else. As you mentioned yourself, it is easy to be ahead in science even with them snatching your techs every other turn.

 

[Jaybe]

Technology leaks through tech stealing, as it SHOULD.

When I'm the tech leader and someone steals a tech that is a half-dozen or more behind where I'm at, I generally do not mind at all: it gives civs that are way behind a way to catch up. When it's by a civ that is about even with me, I blame the real-life Chinese who provide the example for the mechanic with their industrial espionage.

Remember, the civ who is behind and trying to steal tech could be YOU!

 

[gozpel]

If you're ahead in tech, don't bother, they get something cheap for free, forgive them.

It happens again, but be sure to have a spy in the Cap. On Emp or King I don't even bother, but if you're playing Imm, then spying is good.

 

[Argive]

I find that AI is pretty smart in spying, and I actually like that. It beehives into a tech it really wants, and then steals earlier ones from someone appropriate. If you haven't beelined but are still leading the tech race, of course all AI civs will try to steal from you. Some will succeed, some will fail. Point is, you can't be the absolute tech leader and expect to be able to field your agents in city states; you have to play defense. Action and reaction.

 

[Arilian]

It is actually both realistic (more than most parts of the game) and not a real problem.
If you lead in tech, stealing from you will just get you cheaper RAs...
Free declarations ow war? ALL countries would be at wall all the time in this case.
It might be annoying sometimes, true

 

[gozpel]

It's another way to make the AI to keep up with you.

I normally lose when I try to steal a tech, the AI, never.

 

[Deggial]

I normally lose when I try to steal a tech, the AI, never.

Sorry, but this is totally selective perception! Maybe you feel like this, because you are extremely annoyed when your spy got caught or the AI succeeds in stealing while the opposit is quite unremarkable.

The truth is, that the player's spys will easily steal techs, if there is no counter spy present or those anti-spy-buildings. And how do you explain those highly promoted counter-spies of your own, keeping your secrets protected in your capital? At least my spies caught dozends of enemy spies during my games...

Regarding espionage and diplomacy:
Well, it's exactly about this: DIPLOMACY! A good friend sent a spy against you and got caught? If you want the good relations to last, just ignore him (and undertake counteractive measures). Or, if you want to tap his fingers, ask him to stop spying. He will be pissed off, a little bit, but may follow your whishes. That's how (real world) diplomacy works sometimes: Pretending to be blind for some things to gain a "higher benefit". There is no need for a denouncement!

 

[Peng Qi]

I had the declaration of friendship first. After the got their spy, they started spying on me while the declaration was still in effect. I denounced them for it and I'm the one that pays the diplomatic penalty. That's messed up!

Couldn't you just wait until it expires, then denounce?

 

[jozef57]

i realy would like wider spy options, sabotage as most important , but also some sort of agent provocateur options should be there, recruiting people of targeted civilization as anything from preesure groups to sabotage cells and such, for example helping taking a city as 5 colum people maybe trough religous motivation or such

 

[smallfish]

Couldn't you just wait until it expires, then denounce?

30 turns is a long time, things can change alot especially if you plan to attack them "friends" asap

Its way better than the "you declared war on friends" modifier though

 

[Browd]

Actually DOF is 50 turns -- an eternity.

 

[Alzadar]

Catching someone spying on you should invalidate your friendship if you want to.

 

[Technetium]

I probably could have saved myself making this thread entirely if I had noticed before that there is a game setup option to completely disable espionage. Oops. Problem solved!

 

[apocalypse105]

Why would you have a DoF with someone who is spying on you?

Why whould the Ai spy on you if you have a DOF because it doessn't care about good relations...

 

[Deggial]

Why whould the Ai spy on you if you have a DOF because it doessn't care about good relations...

As if this was never seen in (even recent) history...

I'm totally sure, industrial espionage is a BIG issue - even between allied nations. (I'm not pointing with my fingers on anybody specific. No, I'm not!)
And the only reason why we don't hear about this every day is, that usually governments go the "we will look over your espionage attempts this time"-route and don't denounce each other right awy (spoken in terms of CiV) ...