Is the consensus on the tiering

kalandra

Chieftain
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
18
Hi, there.

I am late comer to civilization 4, but I played civ 2 for years, and civ 3 for awhile. Was reading about strategy and stuff, was just wondering is there a tier list of the civilizations + leaders?

Or at least a list of the traits? Which is top, middle and bottom tier (I'm sure Protective bottom after all I read, but what the best?)
 
Top Tier: Incas

Middle Tier: Everyone Else

Bottom Tier: Japan
 
Top Tier: Incas

Middle Tier: Everyone Else

Bottom Tier: Japan
Japan is really that bad? I really like Japan though :lol:

I know Protective is deemed to be the weakest trait, but would like to hear more about the other traits.
 
Somewhat subjective list to follow:
Tier 1 traits: Financial, Philosophical
Tier 2 Traits: Organized (this one is worth more as the the difficulty rises because it saves more money, and is also worth more the more water there is on the map, as its bonuses to buildings matter more the more water there is, as watery maps call for lots of lighthouses, which it boosts, and factories, which are more likely to be made on watery maps, mostly because watery games tend to last longer), Industrious
Tier 3: Spiritual, Creative and Charismatic
Tier 4: Imperialistic, Expansive
Tier 5: Aggressive
Tier 6: Protective

The best leader is harder to answer. If the leaders are unrestricted, it is simpler, as we need to only look at the traits, and Darius and Elizabeth, who have Financial Organized and Financial Philosophical, respectively, are the strongest. If the leaders aren't restricted, Huayna Capac (Financial Industrious) is a good leader with a very strong civ. Elizabeth and Darius have good civs as well, and they are #2 and #3 respectively. For a detailed list of why I think Huayna Darius and Elizabeth fall where they are, see the thread "A piece of advice...." which is a page back in the list of newest threads.
 
From best to worst and divided into semi-equal tiers. edit forgot SPI

FIN
PHIL

IND
ORG
SPI
EXP
CRE

CHA
IMP

AGG

PRO
 
From best to worst and divided into semi-equal tiers. edit forgot SPI

FIN
PHIL

IND
ORG
SPI
EXP
CRE

CHA
IMP

AGG

PRO

SPI is a great trait to have ! All other non-SPI need 1 turn for their change while You can operate at a 100% efficiency the same turn You make a change - exploits will follow ;)
 
SPI is a great trait to have ! All other non-SPI need 1 turn for their change while You can operate at a 100% efficiency the same turn You make a change - exploits will follow ;)

Yeah. Maybe bump SPI two spots but keep it in the same tier. IND is pretty dependent on difficulty, it's a lot worse on IMM+ and even drops some on emperor. I probably boosted IND because Huayna is so good, maybe drop it one. FIN/PHIL together isn't really necessary but it's nice.
 
I thought industrious fail-gold was very useful on higher difficulties (?)
 
Huayana Capac is easily the best because he's the most versatile. His traits, unique unit/building, and starting techs can be leveraged towards any kind of play style. He starts with Mysticism and is Industrious, so a religious wonder-building game is easy to pull off (and those wonders can also be used for tons of GPP). Financial and Industrious can also be used for a strong economy and either a space race win or cultural win. His granary with +2 culture makes early expansion easy since you can skip monuments and whip out granaries for faster growth and border pops. The Quecha is also even more useful on harder difficulties since it's strong against Archers and the AIs start with Archers over Warriors. So whether it's religion, culture, great people, wonders, science, money, expansion or early warmongering you're after, the Incas got it all covered.

Second-tier would probably be Willem van Oranje, Pacal, and Elizabeth. The rest of the civs can be ordered however you want since their strengths are far more narrow.
 
For all that matters I have always valued Ghandi ! He is awesome it is all I have to say in the subject ! :D Other eat my GP farm ! haha :D

EDIT: IND is actually VERY good since wonders are VERY good but one can live without wonders and survive it is all that matters :D
 
Depends on speed, difficulty single-/multi-player.

Good rule, though, is that financial trumps the rest.
 
Somewhat subjective list to follow:
Tier 1 traits: Financial, Philosophical
Tier 2 Traits: Organized (this one is worth more as the the difficulty rises because it saves more money, and is also worth more the more water there is on the map, as its bonuses to buildings matter more the more water there is, as watery maps call for lots of lighthouses, which it boosts, and factories, which are more likely to be made on watery maps, mostly because watery games tend to last longer), Industrious
Tier 3: Spiritual, Creative and Charismatic
Tier 4: Imperialistic, Expansive
Tier 5: Aggressive
Tier 6: Protective

The best leader is harder to answer. If the leaders are unrestricted, it is simpler, as we need to only look at the traits, and Darius and Elizabeth, who have Financial Organized and Financial Philosophical, respectively, are the strongest. If the leaders aren't restricted, Huayna Capac (Financial Industrious) is a good leader with a very strong civ. Elizabeth and Darius have good civs as well, and they are #2 and #3 respectively. For a detailed list of why I think Huayna Darius and Elizabeth fall where they are, see the thread "A piece of advice...." which is a page back in the list of newest threads.
Spoiler :


Your ranking system -
Long answer to question 2, which are the best traits, and further info on what is the best civilization:
When trying to decide who to might be the best, it's important to note what varies between the civilizations: UU, UB, Starting techs, and leader traits.
Let's start with the traits.
Generally, the best traits are typically viewed to be:
Financial (tie for #1) or Philosophical (the other tied for #1).
Organized (the higher the difficulty, the more gold per turn this saves. Also, up to a 50% reduction in build time for Courthouses, Lighthouses and Factories. Due to factory and lighthouse bonuses, is also more powerful on watery maps, where hammers are harder to come by, lighthouses are stronger, and the game is more likely to go until factories)
Industrious (adds to wonders and/or wonder fail gold, and reduces the build time of the second best building, the Forge, in the game by 50%. More powerful on low-hammer maps, like watery maps or ice age maps)
Some people have a major love for spiritual and expansive, but I personally put them as tied at #5, behind any of the ones listed above.

The following leaders have 2 traits composed only of the top 4 traits. 1 "point" will be given for having one of the traits tied for #1. We will also put an asterisk beside anyone with Organized, which notes that it is worth +0.5 if the difficulty is monarch+:
Darius of Persia FIN/ORG 1 point*
Elizabeth of England FIN/PHI 2 points
Franklin Roosevelt of America IND/ORG. 0 points*
Frederick of Germany PHI/ORG 1 point*
Huayna Capac of Inca FIN/IND 1 point

So we have our 5 best leaders. If we pick unrestricted leaders, having one of these people as our leader will probably improve us. If we are not playing unrestricted leaders, then each of these leaders is tied to a specific civilization, with its own UU, UB and starting techs.

So next let's do starting techs. The best starting tech is usually considered to be mining, as it allows you to build mines right away (which are often just as useful as any other improvement for getting settlers and workers out of your first city) AND lets you go straight for bronze working, which allows units (axemen and spearmen), a resource to be revealed (copper), trees to be chopped down, and, most importantly, allows slavery, the most powerful single civic in the game (State Property is a close second, and State property and Caste is actually better than slavery, but that wouldn't be a single civic ;) ). If you cherry-pick starts, then you often look for gems or gold. Either way, you'll need mining. It also allows access to masonry, useful for the Great Lighthouse (a top tier wonder).

The next best tech is much more open for debate.
One thing I can conclusively say, is that Hunting as a starting tech is bad. It is the cheapest of all the starting techs, so you are getting the fewest beakers, and it turns your starting warrior into a starting scout, who can't be used to police your cities (and also, a woodman 2 warrior is often just as fast or faster at exploring). Also, having both spearmen (which require hunting) as well as axemen means you can't build warriors any more, which are a super-cheap way to police core cities (cities away from your borders)

If we want an early religion (which actually isn't that great, but it should mean your starting diplomacy is easier, as you are 1 of the 2 most common religions on most maps, and is important for cultural victories), we want Mysticism. That way our first tech is the religion we want to found. Mysticism can also speed up the Oracle, but this really seems to have less effect than a Gold tile or having-the-right-resources-nearby-so-your-workers-are-always-busy-without-wasting-turns (I'm no master of the intricacies of the Oracle Wonder though).

Whether or not agriculture, or fishing is best depends on your terrain, but usually it is one of those 2 for the number 2 spot, so we can get some food early. Fishing also allows access to early sailing, which can help connect cities without roads (very useful on watery maps to get early trade routes).

So we usually want:
#1 Mining and 1 of Fishing, agriculture
#2 Mining and Mysticism (we want to start an early religion).

Out of our top leaders, we give 1.5 points for mining, 1 point for agriculture or fishing, 0.5 points for mysticism, and -0.5 points for hunting:
Elizabeth of England (Mining, Fishing) Only Elizabeth gets the full 2.5 points.
Darius of Persia: Hunting and Agriculture. 0.5 Points.
Franklin Roosevelt of America: Fishing and agriculture. 2 points
Frederick of Germany: Hunting and Mining. 1 Point
Huayna of the Incas: Agriculture and mysticism. 1.5 Points

Total so far:
Elizabeth: 4.5 points
Huayna: 2.5 Points
Franklin Roosevelt: 2 points*
Frederick: 2 Points*
Darius 1.5*

Next we look at UU's.
They are scored as follows:
Era they appear: +1 points if your UU is ancient age, +0.5 if it is classical, 0 if it is medieval, -0.5 if it renaissance, -1 if it is industrial, -1.5 if it is modern. Obviously, this assumes an ancient age start. If you started later, these numbers would completely change. Having praetorian's as your UU would be a bad thing if you started in the modern age where prateorian's are long obsolete ;)
Additional Strength given (really subjective, I won't lie): -0.5 to +1.5. Yes, some UU's are crappier than their normal counterparts.
Additional bonus if the unit is very common or strong on it own: up to +1

Darius: Immortals+1 for age, +1 for strength, +0 for base unit being common-ish, but weak, with a reasonable, but certainly not long window
Elizabeth: (BTS! In vanilla, the Redcoats are uber-powerful, but in BTS they have been very notably weakened!): -0.5 for era, +0.5 for additional strength, +0.5 for strength and commonality of base unit. +0.5 total.
Franklin Roosevelt: Navy Seals-1.5 for era, +0.5 for bonus strength, + 0 for base unit being okay. -1 total.
Frederick: Panzer-1.5 for era, +0 for additional strength (just bring an anti-tank infantry!), +0.5 for strength and commonality of the base unit. -1 total.
Huayna Capac: Quechua+1.5 for era. +0.75 for strength, but +1.25 strength if the difficulty is monarch+ and the AI starts with archers; again, will be denoted by an asterisk. -0.5 for the fact that the base unit is the weakest unit in the game, with the shortest effective window. +2 total.

Running total:
Elizabeth: 5 points
Huayna: 4.5 Points*
Darius 3.5 points*
Franklin Roosevelt: 1 point*
Frederick: 1 Point*

Lastly, we look at the UB's. I use the same criteria as the UU's essentially.
Era they appear: +1 points if your UB is ancient age, +0.5 if it is classical, 0 if it is medieval, -0.5 if it renaissance, -1 if it is industrial, -1.5 if it is modern.
Additional Strength given (really subjective, I won't lie): 0 to +1.5. Minimum of 0 instead of negative, as there are no UB's that are worse than their counterparts.
Additional bonus if the building is very common or strong on it own: up to +0.5

Darius: Apothecary. Era: 0. +0.75 for building strength. It's main purpose is health, and it gives even more health. +0.5 for commonality and strength of the base building. +1.25
Elizabeth: Stock Exchange. Era: -0.5. Additional strength, +0.75. +0.25 for strength of base building. +0.5 total.
Franklin Roosevelt: Mall -1.5 for era, +1.25 for bonus strength, -0.25 for building being okay, but basically completely skip-able, even when you have access to it. -0.5
Frederick: Assembly Plant-1.5 for era, 0 for additional strength (just cheaper if you have coal, which is already copied by anyone with Organized), +0.5 for strength and commonality of the base unit. -1. total.
strength-wise, but not commonly used. -1 total.
Huayna Capac: Terrace+1.5 for era. +0.75 for strength (allows you to completely skip monuments in all your cities). +1 for the fact that the base building is the most common building in the game, necessary in every city worth settling. +3.25 total.

Final Total
Huayna: 7.75 Points *
Elizabeth: 5.5 points
Darius 4.75 points *
Franklin Roosevelt: 0.5 points *
Frederick: -0.25 Points *
* denotes adding +0.5 when playing monarch plus. For Huayna, this is from his UU finding its ideal target and being able to rush more easily than ever. For the others, it is from organized saving more gold on higher difficulties.

Which leaves Huayna Capac of the Incans as the best of the standard-rules leader-and-civilzation combos, and Elizabeth of England and Darius of Persia as the second and third respectively. If you are playing with Unrestricted Leaders, Elizabeth and Darius are the two top leaders for just about any civilization, with Huayna and Frederick close behind.

I like the way you rank them, but Franklin and Frederick are obviously not strong contenders since both their UU and UB start out late.

I'm not saying you're wrong in your ranking, but have you considered the Romans? Julius is Industrious and Augustus is Organize, both highly rated in your list, but just not the best.

Starting tech wise - Romans start with Fishing and Mining, thats 2.5 according to your system.

Praetorians are arguable the strongest UU you can get. According to your system thats +0.5 for the classical age start, +1.5 for how strong the unit is and another +0.5 for commoness of the unit, so another 2.5.

For UB, I'm not sure how you rate Forum, but considering how Philosophical is highly rated and the fact Marketplace available in the Classical age and is commonly built, I think it deserve at least a 1.5?

Augustus would get +1 for trait, +2.5 for starting techs, +2.5 for Praets, and finally +1.5 for their Forums.

Thats +6.5, thats higher than your second and third ranked leaders. Huayna Capac is indeed scored higher, but I argue Praets have a much longer window to be abused than Huayna Quechas - which really obsoletes once your enemies get Axeman and Terrace cultural bonus kinda fades as the game progress to Medieval, but Forum +25% GP is really consistent through out the ages. Both facts lead me to assume that Huayna Capac is really a monster in the earliest game period , but I argue once Romans get to Iron Working and Currency - Romans would be able to fight their way back.

Romans really good synergy. They need Iron Working for their UU so starting with Mining and +50% settler production really helps getting that Iron faster than most civilization. Augustus Caesar can further add more synergy, as you naturally would build alot of Wonders with his Industrious ability and with Forum +25% GP, I can argue it could even be better than Philosophical at certain times, since you be able to beat them at Wonder building. Again, not saying you're wrong, hopefully you don't take this the wrong way.
 
Hang oin are we talking restricted or unrestricted?
 
PHI's power also depends on the ability to trade techs. The old fashioned Paper-Education-Liberalism bulb line gets boosted by PHI GScientists, and the ability to leverage them depends on getting to whore them around.
 
No love for Hatshepsut? One of the best UUs, though it is narrow as it depends on getting horses very early. I'd rate her above Ramses because Cre has better synergy with an early rush than Ind.
 
No dreams about William? :D Nice trait combination - CRE is best trait to deal with barbs.. settle city 2 tiles from barb city, get border pop, wait few more turns and... do with new city whatever you want.. and FIN I think needs no description..
UU and UB maybe comes late (thats why not very good) and also works only for water (useless on pangea map type), but.. with East Indiaman you can REX fast and same time be able to attack enemy galleons with strong odds (window from astronomy to chemistry isn't too big.. but still its big enough to get advantage).. and Dike.. well - it comes late and isn't cheap but it will help late game any situation if you get that far.. space race or conquest.. both needs extra hammers :) And if you have city with just some 3 mines and everything else coastal, than Dike + Moai + Heroic Epic + Military Academy + (Drydock) + Forge + Factory + Coal plant.. I guess that can give some 45-50 base hammers.. after +%, something bigger for sure :D

/Still - I like SPI trait too.. it can be real pain with huge empire when just switch to another religion takes 2 not 1 turn.. and 3 civic change takes 5 turns...
 
I love Joao(IMP+EXP) for settler/worker rush and Pericles(PHI+CRE) for sped up library/university production.:)

The leader with Imp/Cha has good synergy, for me. I forgot who he is. Cyrus, maybe?:confused:
[An immediate GG emergence + immediate promotion] or
[Expansion + monument for extra happiness]
Preferably restricted. Though I would like to know what the best unrestricted civilization and leader combo would be.
Not best, but I probably go for Org+Spi. I do love civic experimention.:D
 
I'd consider just leaders personally. Cupac is good himself, but what makes him super is his accompanying civilization. I really like creative myself because it saves lots of time building culture early when it's important to get those border pops to get all the tile bonuses under your border. It isn't as important later in game, but early game has the biggest impact overall, so it's a very powerful trait to me unless you manage stonehenge and I rarely do. Other things to be doing.

Financial is of course super powerful. Personally, I like Charismatic a lot too. It has a bonus both for early population/whip max and for combat too, which is some nice variety.
 
Preferably restricted. Though I would like to know what the best unrestricted civilization and leader combo would be.

Pacal or Joao of Inca.

Shulgi's list is accurate.

Keep in mind, however, that traits themselves aren't as strong as you'd be led to believe. I'd trade away any trait to get a river corn + gem mine start and guaranteed copper or horse.
 
Back
Top Bottom