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Is the Steam DRM just a one-time verification check? Or is it much more?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by mossmonster, May 12, 2010.

  1. The_Coyote

    The_Coyote Emperor

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    Atm true, but than you have to check your contact email adress at least one time in 30 days, if you don´t want to risk to accept accidental changes of the subscriber agreement. Or want to avoid the trouble and argue that you didn´t received the changes so far and therefore the 30 days period didn´t started.


    it can´t be that i simply miss the included nuance in your formulation, but i would say it a bit ifferent, like, if Valve gathers such information (eg Email adress), which are characterized as "personally identifiable information", Valve will not give them away / sell them (if not required by law or a court decision). Also that such information are stored in the USA. Individual information in sense of the policy may be shared with other parties and "may be used to improve Valve's products and online sites, for internal marketing studies, or simply to collect demographic information about Valve's users". The later are all data which would allow to say you are Player X and in extrem case no other player share this data profil, but no eg contact information or name can - without additional informations - won from this data.

    But like said, it could be that i misunderstood one or two formulation of you and didn´t saw their true meaning.
     
  2. CivilizedTiger

    CivilizedTiger Prince

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    What this means is that you're asking US to see whether your statements are correct, and if they're not, you're asking US to offer evidence that your statements are incorrect.

    This right here is you not understanding that the burden of proof is on YOU. If YOU make claims, then YOU must support them by evidence. We are not bound to refute your arguments so long as you offer no proof. You can't ask us to show you why your ideas are wrong, you first have to offer a demonstration of why you think your ideas are correct.

    It's this very paragraph which I'm quoting from you which shows that you don't assume the burden of proof. And please take into account the fact that questions, especially rhetorical questions, also imply arguments. If you have an idea, a guess about something, to disguise it in a question is dishonest, but it doesn't save you from the burden of proof.

    If you want to ask questions and not be asked for proof, make those neutral questions, not questions which assume a predetermined answer, not questions which already point out to an answer. I don't think anyone knowledgeable enough to tell you about the burden of proof can be fooled by disguising statements inside questions.
     
  3. Chalks

    Chalks The blue pieces

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    Changes made to the Steam subscriber agreement cannot possibly affect you if you have no internet access on Steam.

    I unfortunately have to admit that I couldn't understand what the rest of your post said. I think it is somewhat lost in translation, but I think it is important to point out that my comments about Steams information gathering relates exclusively to automatic gathering of non user submitted data as it pertains to the claims made by the OP.
     
  4. mossmonster

    mossmonster Consider, if you will...

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    @Chalks:

    Thank you for your constructive comments. :)



    I haven't "forgotten" because in the real world Civ5 players are unlikely to simply avoid using Steam. Isn't Steam to hold a monopoly on the Civ5 patches? Patches aren't just extra fun stuff, they are bug-fixes too and are necessary. What about the mods that are hosted on Steam? If I am interested in a mod do I also have to accept the latest version of Steam be downloaded onto my computer as well? From the OP:



    I'm not really concerned with my information being gathered and sent back to Steam or my identity being determined. That wasn't anywhere in my OP questions.


    Thanks for stopping by. You're welcome back any time. :lol:
     
  5. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    Your info is not exactly safe, I left this on page 2... I'll leave it again in case you missed it.

    This is only a small portion of it also, and is some of the good things about the privacy policy they have.

    In other words, they will use your personal info on certain things and 3rd party sites can use it for w/e they want to (since Valve doesn't bother with monitoring these 3rd parties).

    If I become a 3rd party with a link, I can take everyones info and sell it on the black market.
     
  6. mossmonster

    mossmonster Consider, if you will...

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    :eek: For once we are in complete agreement.
     
  7. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

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    What you fail to mention is what info Valve does and does not gather. You claim that your info is not 'safe' but without knowing what info it is and who these third parties are, how are we supposed to tell if the sharing of this info is bad?

    For example, suppose Valve installs a patch on my computer that logs everything I do on this computer, even non-steam related things. They then share my credit card info with 'Mwuahaha we will abuse your credit card info, Inc.' I can see this is being very, very bad...

    Another example. Valve monitors what games I play and what adds I look at in the steam store. Valve shares with the developers that have acontract with steam - who happen to be legit and honest game studios - which type of games are the most popular. With this info the studios can attempt to make the games better and target me as a consumer directly by using the info to decide what add I will see when I open the steam store. This data that was uploaded by me is not presented in such a way that no one will know the data is coming from me. Should anyone be outraged by this? I think not.
     
  8. mossmonster

    mossmonster Consider, if you will...

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    No, because the original claim was not made by me. All over these forums I read comments about how great Steam was and whenever that position was questioned and the more intrusive features of Steam were mentioned the response was often that the Steam DRM was just a one-time verification check (see the thread title). I then put the questions that are in conflict with that original statement into a list and asked them to back up their original claim about Steam DRM by refuting my challenges to their claim.

    Because I was seeking something greater than a fanboi answer I requested a link to support any such claims. If the people making the claim that Steam isn't intrusive are actually familiar with Steam then they should be able to easily find links that support their claim.
     
  9. tom2050

    tom2050 Deity

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    It does say: aggregate information and individual information. I think it's all bad, I get enough spam as it is.

    Furthermore, these companies should have the respect for their customers to obtain data not secretly, but with the customer informed. After all, with Steam, just have a little questionarre on the side asking if it's okay they gather and use your info. Then you can decide.

    Firaxis is going the slimy Ubisoft scum route...
     
  10. 7thGate

    7thGate Chieftain

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    I can't exactly source this, but I am fairly certain that they won't be able to block you from using mods of your choice. The reason being not that they are benevolent corporate overlords, but that I do not believe there is a technical way to do that can't be circumvented.

    Consider how they could impose a block; they could key off mod name or they could checksum files, or they could look for a chunk of binary which is present in a file. The mod name is easy to change, and modifying files so they have different checksums is also not terribly difficult. Looking for a unique binary string in the executing image or resource would be harder to work around, but I don't think it would be impossible.

    They could refuse to carry the mod on steam, but it has already been verified that we will be able to install mods independently of steam.

    Its actually kind of interesting, but I bet there is a way to set up a system where by using different levels of compiler optimization or self compression to mangle the produced binary in different ways, coupled with a source code release of a mod with an automated build process, there might be a way to create a sort of automated framework for mod identity-hiding which could be included by any potentially targeted mod-makers. It could actually be kind of fun to work on something like that...maybe I will if this actually starts to happen. I hate it when people try and take away my rights to use the stuff I bought. Would be technically challenging too, which is always fun.

    I don't think this is going to happen though, but I am certain there will be workarounds even if the worst comes to pass.

    Also, to address the topic of this post, I believe the answer is that yes, Steam is much more than just a one time DRM check. From what people have been saying, Civ uses Steam to handle many of its core functions. Depending on just how much it is integrated (and right now, all we know is that a non-programming 2k games person said that it was "very integrated"), it may be essentially part of the game. Without it, Civ may just not run not for any evil rights-restricting reasons, but simply because the game is calling all sorts of code in Steamworks to do stuff, and if that stopped existing the game would crash. Programs very rarely like it when they can't find important libraries to do stuff that is assumed to be there; I've seen it often enough running games in wine that crash when trying to access that stupid msxml dll.

    Additionally, I am not certain why you think steam would be required to deny your access to mods, assuming such a thing was technically implemented somehow. Can't Civ 5 itself already do that with patches?
     
  11. RockingKraut

    RockingKraut Chieftain

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    Wow...since Facebook has become Big Brother of the social networks...Now Steam has become the Big Brother of DRM.

    How any of us can complain about Steam since it is one of the few GOOD forms of DRM is beyond me. They can go ahead and collect data on me, as long as I do nothing illegal and they don't block mods which Valve has never done unless their actual copyright is infringed, such as the Half Life 2 Beta incident. Fireaxis also has a history of ADOPTING mod ideas such as the XML modular loading so I don't know how thats bad....This baseless paranoia...I'm going with Chalks on this.
     
  12. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

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    Most from Chalks? :p

    Steam asks to gather info. I remember installing steam twice and I remember being asked. Also in the preferences you can readely find the box you can tick - or untick, I do not remember which - if you do not want to share info.

    Still there is no clarity on what info that is. It is possibly mail used for spamming, but I find that doubtful. It is probably other info, for other purposes. How are we to know if this is bad unless we know exactly what info is gathered and for what purpose? I am not outraged or concerned based on speculations. If I think about what I do with steam, then I pretty much feel like they could publish whatever they can gather on the front page a national newspaper. I care not, cause all I do is play a game now and then. Shocking...
     
  13. CivilizedTiger

    CivilizedTiger Prince

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    You are the one propagating them in this topic. And no matter how you'd look at it, in the silliest scenario, the burden of proof would still not be on us, but on those making the original claim. Again... burden of proof always lies with those who make the claim, not those skeptical to it. If the skeptics, on the other hand, make a statement themselves, then they are also bound by that burden of proof.

    But no matter how you look at it, you can't present a statement and ask people to prove you wrong. First offer a demonstration of why you think you're right.

    And if you think that the original posters should offer proof, then tell it to THEM. And stop propagating their ideas. ;)
     
  14. RockingKraut

    RockingKraut Chieftain

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    Valve uses it personally to gauge how far along they'll update their Source engine. It basically just checks the standard hardware Steam users have.
     
  15. mossmonster

    mossmonster Consider, if you will...

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    I agree that even if they did ban mods/content and have Steam check for banned material before allowing the game to start that we could fine a way to work around any such ban. If we find a way around the ban would we be exposing ourselves to even greater sanctions, like the game being "bricked" and disabled?

    If I am being asked to shell out $50 for a game it would be nice to know I won't need to work around any content bans in order to play.
     
  16. Shurdus

    Shurdus Am I Napoleon?

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    Knowing what info the average gamer has can actually be beneficial to developers, so if this is really it then all the outrage in here warrants a :lol:.
     
  17. RockingKraut

    RockingKraut Chieftain

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    It makes me laugh anyway. Two of the most mod friendly developers being accused of not letting mods into a game XD
     
  18. 2K Elizabeth

    2K Elizabeth <span style="font-weight:bold; text-decoration: un

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    This is, indeed, true. Steam will be used with Civ V and you will have to run it when you play the game, but it won't prevent you from playing mods - we're not interested in limiting you guys. We are using the system to get you guys to connect together and find content easily, to have updates conveniently, to have a system that doesn't require a DVD... Steam is all of those things.
     
  19. RockingKraut

    RockingKraut Chieftain

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    Speak of the devil XD
     
  20. mossmonster

    mossmonster Consider, if you will...

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    IMHO all DRM is only an annoyance to us honest users. The pirates always seem to break any protections that are used anyway. I would never pirate a game and as I would like to see there be a Civ6 (too soon?) someday I don't mind paying my fair share.

    GOOD DRM to me is only the lesser of the available EVILs. :devil:


    Me too. I'm not worried about the data on my game computer.


    Now we are onto the issue. Who decides what is the "actual copyright"? Not us. I expect to see a bunch of Babylonian civ mods just after the game is released. What about the Mesopotamia map? How close can a map be to the copyrighted map before some corporate bean counter decides it is an infringement on their content? Based on prior experience can we then expect Valve to block the content? What if the content is already on my computer on a half-finished game? Can I expect the Steam client on my computer to give an error message about blocked content when I start Civ5?


    Firaxis does have a good record. Thanks for your comments. :)
     

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