Is there a mod for Citadels?

[blitzkrieg1980]

To me, one of the most obnoxious features of Civ5 is the Great General land steal. If borders are based on culture, why do I have to deal with obnoxious GG spamming AI absolutely destroying my capital's food and productivity? Trying to combat this with your own GG is almost useless on higher levels. Player going to win a peaceful victory? Just make sure the AI is programmed to absolutely ravage his capital with GG spam -> Citadels... Rubbish! Mind you, I don't like that the human player has the ability to do this, either. I just want it gone. It's a far worse late-game annoyance to me than global warming was in Civ4... and that was pretty damn annoying.

Please tell me that there a mod that removes this garbage from the game. I've tried searching for one, but the relevant search terms never bring proper results.

 

[beetle]

Your post reminded me of this DCL screen shot from a while back. Yes, the AIs can be quite obnoxious with Citadels.

Spoiler Japan pawning Carthage :

But, on balance, I find this behavior from the AI to be a “feature” as it is one of only a few ways the AI might actually challenge the player.

I manage it by always trying to have a spare GG of my own. If I get bombed, I bomb back immediately. In my experience, the first is followed by a second, and if you let a second AI GG get planted, the situation is really hard to recover from.

I am also willing to DOW to prevent a GG from planting. AI is willing to use GG against me, the “friendly” player, even though I have them at war with everyone else...

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yes, the AIs can be quite obnoxious with Citadels.
But, on balance, I find this behavior from the AI to be a “feature” as it is one of only a few ways the AI might actually challenge the player.

I manage it by always trying to have a spare GG of my own. If I get bombed, I bomb back immediately. In my experience, the first is followed by a second, and if you let a second AI GG get planted, the situation is really hard to recover from.

I am also willing to DOW to prevent a GG from planting. AI is willing to use GG against me, the “friendly” player, even though I have them at war with everyone else...

Well, high level AIs seem to spam units pretty well if they make it to the industrial era+ when this actually becomes a problem. They're also pretty ruthless on culture making that victory a difficult one to achieve. If this is the balance necessary to stop a player from the other victories, it is a really bad one considering a domination victory would just have me point my guns at them. The problem is that a civ I have a Dec of Friendship with can basically invade a huge chunk of my land with no diplo penalty and I'm pretty much stuck doing nothing about it or risk backstabber penalty. I don't think I've ever lost a game because of this crap... but neither do I find it necessary to be trolled so often by such a nonsense feature. It could be said that global warming in Civ4 helped the AI since all their bonuses minimized the effect to them while the player could lose some significant tiles (fully developed towns, resource tiles, etc). But I also modded that crap out of my Civ4.

TL;DR, is there a mod that removes this or do I have to do it myself?

 

[docbud]

It is annoying when the AI citadel bombs you. I've had it happen a couple of times, and like blitzkreig1980, it was an AI who I had a DOF with.

That's one reason I hate DOFs. As soon as you make one, it seems the friendly AI then prophet spams you or citadel bombs you.

Usually I am able to citadel bomb back, especially when the AI stole my aluminum or oil.

 

[beetle]

But I also modded that crap out of my Civ4...
...is there a mod that removes this or do I have to do it myself?

Would it not be much easier just to figure out how to play the game as it? Stop signing DOF and open borders with the AIs which are likely to do this to you. The game is a balancing act, so I think it is quite interesting and challenging to face this sort of behavior from the AI! How dare the AI interrupt my turtling in peace?

 

[Browd]

Is citadel bombing really any better or worse than Great Artist bombing in vanilla?

Yes, the citadel itself has some continuing effects (the GA culture bomb did not), but you can pillage the citadel, so....

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Would it not be much easier just to figure out how to play the game as it? Stop signing DOF and open borders with the AIs which are likely to do this to you. The game is a balancing act, so I think it is quite interesting and challenging to face this sort of behavior from the AI! How dare the AI interrupt my turtling in peace?

I'm not aware that there are specific AIs that are likely to do this vs AIs that are unlikely to do this. DoF are a crucial part of a non-domination game since you can't trade bulk gold or get research agreements without them. If the AI wants to interrupt my turtling in peace, then he should DoW especially since my army is usually not especially large when going for peaceful victories. The game is a balancing act and the Citadel bomb is an unbalancing effect IMO. I find nothing interesting about the AI spamming GG and trolling a DoF partner when it should be using those GG for the wars they're in against very physical threats. I honestly think the dev team just needed to give the Citadel some sort of extra feature beyond the marginally useful defense bonus and this was the best they came up with. Since I know this annoyance is personal, I'd simply like to have a mod to remove it instead of saying that it shouldn't have been a feature in the first place.

Features like this remind me of Global Warming from Civ4. Many people modded that crap out of the game even though it was the game "as is". It was annoying and we are playing a game for fun, no? I'm certainly not playing Civ to impress anyone. So why should I put up with this relatively frequent annoyance if there is a mod out there to remove it?

Is citadel bombing really any better or worse than Great Artist bombing in vanilla?

Yes, the citadel itself has some continuing effects (the GA culture bomb did not), but you can pillage the citadel, so....

Well, if you can pillage that tile, then you are at war with said rival. Like I said, if I'm able to DoW on a high level AI that has GG spam that late in the game, I'm probably going domination and don't really care about those citadels anyway. It's also highly unlikely that an AI even has close borders with my core cities at that point in the game if I'm going domination.

The AI GA bombing in Civ4 was rare enough that I only saw it in like 15% of my games (versus the 50-60% I see citadel spam in Civ5) and at least that sort of border pop made sense given how borders are cultural in nature. I get that putting a citadel (which is basically a forward operations base) should definitely have a ZoC like barb camps but totally displacing a culturally defined border with no diplo penalties at all? That's messed up. Perhaps the dev team could have put a "balancing effect" where each time that happens, other civs that have DoF with the culprit gain negative diplo modifiers. But I just think it would be easier to remove the feature from the game in a mod.

 

[beetle]

I'm not aware that there are specific AIs that are likely to do this vs AIs that are unlikely to do this.

The more aggressive AIs are more likely to pull this trick. There are not so subtle “tells” that the AI is inclined to do. I expect trouble from an AI that is hostile but offering open borders and maybe even a DOF.

DoF are a crucial part of a non-domination game since you can't trade bulk gold or get research agreements without them.

Absolutely, I very much respect that.

If the AI wants to interrupt my turtling in peace, then he should DoW especially since my army is usually not especially large when going for peaceful victories.

There are so few examples of the AI being a little subtle, I would hate to give up this one. The AI is trying to goad you into breaking the DOF. It is actually a little bit clever. The AI might do even when you have strong military advantage. Shaka did that to me in the Korean DCL game.

The game is a balancing act and aggression while not being at war is very much of that. There are so few opportunities for the AI to surprise a player, I don’t understand why you would wish this behavior away. Certainly, you want to be managing better than you are.

Features like this remind me of Global Warming from Civ4. Many people modded that crap out of the game even though it was the game "as is".

I understand that some people hated Global Warming and Corruption. I thought they were okay. But neither is anything like seeing actual competitive behavior from the AI!

So why should I put up with this relatively frequent annoyance if there is a mod out there to remove it?

It is not any different than turning off CS or spying or religion -- rather than taking the effort to learn how they work. Sure, you can remove features from the game. That might make the game more predictable, and an individual might like the game better that way. The developers make a number of features easy enough to disable. But I don’t think it is reasonable to argue that the game would be better without one feature or another.

But I just think it would be easier to remove the feature from the game in a mod.

Learning to mod cannot possibly be easier than learning how to deal with this aspect of AI behavior.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

The more aggressive AIs are more likely to pull this trick. There are not so subtle “tells” that the AI is inclined to do. I expect trouble from an AI that is hostile but offering open borders and maybe even a DOF.


Absolutely, I very much respect that.


There are so few examples of the AI being a little subtle, I would hate to give up this one. The AI is trying to goad you into breaking the DOF. It is actually a little bit clever. The AI might do even when you have strong military advantage. Shaka did that to me in the Korean DCL game.

The game is a balancing act and aggression while not being at war is very much of that. There are so few opportunities for the AI to surprise a player, I don’t understand why you would wish this behavior away. Certainly, you want to be managing better than you are.


I understand that some people hated Global Warming and Corruption. I thought they were okay. But neither is anything like seeing actual competitive behavior from the AI!


It is not any different than turning off CS or spying or religion -- rather than taking the effort to learn how they work. Sure, you can remove features from the game. That might make the game more predictable, and an individual might like the game better that way. The developers make a number of features easy enough to disable. But I don’t think it is reasonable to argue that the game would be better without one feature or another.


Learning to mod cannot possibly be easier than learning how to deal with this aspect of AI behavior.

You make a very convincing point regarding actual tactics with AI surprising behavior and goading. You've actually convinced me to try and adapt to this annoyance LOL. You are far too correct in saying that it is about time the dev team brought something intelligent into the AI tactics. I suppose I just got overly annoyed my last couple games I saw this in. It really pissed me off but I do suppose learning to adapt to actually AI intelligence would be a fun challenge.

Any suggestions?

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[Volcanon]

If you remove citadel bombing the you as the player cant steal land with citadels, which is always fun.

 

[beetle]

Any suggestions?

I have had enough trouble with late game GG bombs that I now make it a point to always have some early war. The point is not to take cities, but to earn at least one GG myself. So that if a neighbor steals my land, that I have an option other than DOWing. After the first GG bomb, I will then put units (can be civilian) all along the front line, until the Open Boarders treaty expires. This does not stop the AI from dropping a citadel in their own territory, but it slows them down quite a bit.

 

[Crus8r]

Well, citadels can only be planted adjacent to their cultural borders, so only AIs who are very close to your borders can do this to you...make sure you keep this in mind before offering/accepting DoF with an AI...

Crus8r

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Some good advice. What do you do if the AI really spams the GGs and hits your border 2 or 3 times even after you countered with your own Citadel? I've seen this behavior on more than a few scattered occasions. That's when it goes from annoying to infuriating lol. That scenario is actually why I started this thread.

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[adsin15]

Citadel leapfrogging is one of the best ways to take those inland capitals. If you ever play continents or archapeligo maps you know the pain..

Some monsterous AI civ is on the other side of the world and they have massive culture and a different ideology than you...Freedom or Autocracy come to mind. They are causing you serious unhappiness and their Gunboat Diplomacy/Treaty Organization ability is slowly but surely sucking up every single city state on the map leading them to a Diplomatic Victory.

You can't just sail over and smash their capital bc, even though its an archapeligo map...their capital isn't on the coast. Now you have to sail over there, establish a beachhead, land a crapload of troops and then push on to the capital.

I can't imagine how much of a pain in the behind this would be if you didn't have GG Citadel ability. .

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Citadel leapfrogging is one of the best ways to take those inland capitals. If you ever play continents or archapeligo maps you know the pain..

Some monsterous AI civ is on the other side of the world and they have massive culture and a different ideology than you...Freedom or Autocracy come to mind. They are causing you serious unhappiness and their Gunboat Diplomacy/Treaty Organization ability is slowly but surely sucking up every single city state on the map leading them to a Diplomatic Victory.

You can't just sail over and smash their capital bc, even though its an archapeligo map...their capital isn't on the coast. Now you have to sail over there, establish a beachhead, land a crapload of troops and then push on to the capital.

I can't imagine how much of a pain in the behind this would be if you didn't have GG Citadel ability. .

Well for that very specific and particular case, yes the Citadel is great to have on your side. I have used it before even in general invasions on lower levels. However, that was not enough of a reason for me to want to keep them in the game. On the contrary, it is more the ai's ability to actually use citadel's intelligently that ultimately made me decide to forgo taking them out. As per Beetle's argument.

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[joncnunn]

Moderator Action: Moved to Creation & Customization

 

[Troller0001]

Here's how you can remove the Culture Bomb by adding a simple XML file to your mod:

<Improvements>
          <Update>
               <Where Type="IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL"/>
               <Set CultureBombRadius="0"/>
	   </Update>
</Improvements>

The file needs to have an OnModActivate -> UpdateDatabase in the actions tab.
Enjoy

 

[LeeS]

Here's how you can remove the Culture Bomb by adding a simple XML file to your mod:

<Improvements>
          <Update>
               <Where Type="IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL"/>
               <Set CultureBombRadius="0"/>
	   </Update>
</Improvements>

The file needs to have an OnModActivate -> UpdateDatabase in the actions tab.
Enjoy

Erm

1. <GameData> wraps
2. Unfortunately the folks who have previously posted on this thread are are almost certain not to have any earthly idea of what your code or instructions mean. They aren't regular customers in Creation & Customization. You might ask if the OP is still really interested in a such a mod, and make one if he is. Though I think the method you want to use might not actually stop citadel bombing since the citadel tile itself might still change tile ownership.

 

[Troller0001]

Erm

1. <GameData> wraps
2. Unfortunately the folks who have previously posted on this thread are are almost certain not to have any earthly idea of what your code or instructions mean. They aren't regular customers in Creation & Customization. You might ask if the OP is still really interested in a such a mod, and make one if he is. Though I think the method you want to use might not actually stop citadel bombing since the citadel tile itself might still change tile ownership.

1. Erm, woops... I usually forget those when posting here since Modbuddy automatically adds them...
2. Yea, didn't think about that... (IIRC, you can't construct citadels in rival territory, it only claims rival territory around the citadel. So with the above changes (does not claim tiles around itself), a citadel can only claim a neutral tile next to friendly territory. However, if blitzkrieg also wants this feature removed, I could simply do that with help of the <InAdjacentFriendly>-tag in XML)
   
   So, blitzkrieg, do you want me to create the citadel-mod for you? I'll post the link in this thread once I'm finished if you want to?

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

1. Erm, woops... I usually forget those when posting here since Modbuddy automatically adds them...
2. Yea, didn't think about that... (IIRC, you can't construct citadels in rival territory, it only claims rival territory around the citadel. So with the above changes (does not claim tiles around itself), a citadel can only claim a neutral tile next to friendly territory. However, if blitzkrieg also wants this feature removed, I could simply do that with help of the <InAdjacentFriendly>-tag in XML)
   
   So, blitzkrieg, do you want me to create the citadel-mod for you? I'll post the link in this thread once I'm finished if you want to?

Wow thanks so much, man! It's really appreciated but you don't have to do it just for little old me lol. I was really just asking if one already existed. I think I'm going to try to adapt to the game as is per the excellent argument Beetle made. But if you're interested in doing it for community or for you're own love of modding, don't let me stop you.

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