Is this "cheating"?

[The Economist]

One thing that I've been doing is this. When I start a game, I'll take note of the starting surroundings and if I think the starting spot is decent, I'll move my settler and worker around a bit to scope out the area. If it still looks decent, I'll click "retire" and see what the lay of the land is, and where the other countries start. Then if I'm still happy with it, I'll re-load the auto-save at 4000 B.C. and start from there.

Now its not outright cheating in the way it is when you re-load battle after battle until you win with minimal losses and/or get about 47 GL's to rush everything or something like that- but I still sometimes feel like this somehow makes me less of a player.

But on the other hand, when I start a new game and two - three hours into it I realize I have no chance of even being a major power because I don't know how to cope with the crappy starting location, that wasted time makes me .

I play on monarch and either seem to win easily, or lose horribly depending mostly on my terrain starting. I always lose miserably whenever I try the whole "max taxes and buy techs" thing, since the AI's demand enormous sums of money for every little tech. I guess I'd just need to get more commerce for that to work better, and I know its usually only used on Diety and Emperor. When I play emperor I also get thrashed soundly every time. Ah well. I'm waiting to get C3C because I have some papers to write, and evil tests to study for and such, and don't need any new distractions.

I play as the Egyptians mostly

Oh, and I'm new here to the forums, so

 

[Lyonesse]

Well, I think you're right that its no more cheating than reloading for battles...but...IMHO they are both cheating
I am like you in some ways...I can't stand to have a "bad" starting point. But what I do seems to help quite a bit. I play on HUGE land with not so many "Mountain ranges". If I really don't want to be bothered, I play against only a few other AI civs, instead of the lot of them. Maybe this would help??? I dunno, trial and error I guess.

 

[cracker]

While you can pretty much do whatever you want to do in the privacy of your own bedroom,

what you describe is pretty much a big way to disable some of the more exciting features of the game and at the same time deprive yourself of the opportunity to play the game with some of its strategic depth in place.

Many people enjoy playing a game over and over again on a known map where all the locations of rivals and resources are known even before the map is revealed. If you think you might enjoy playing the game when you already know the answer then there are numerous mods and premade maps to support you in the is goal.

If you want to enjoy the thrill of dicovery and the true depth of the game, wean yourself off of this bad habit you have adopted and you will find lots of interesting outcomes and opportunities that you are missing.

 

[Mark Young]

Originally posted by cracker

If you want to enjoy the thrill of dicovery and the true depth of the game, wean yourself off of this bad habit you have adopted and you will find lots of interesting outcomes and opportunities that you are missing.

Civ3 can be as hard or as easy as you want. One thing that I have found is that if you stick to only what you know then it will become boring to play after a while.
When I first came to this site I entered the old tourney on chieftan level, now I am attacking emporer (although I have yet to win), I have found that the harder levels require you to almost learn a whole new way of playing. It can be as frustrating when you start on a new level as when you first got Civ and lost on chieftan but after a while you learn and get better.
My next goal is to be on Diety before Easter.

 

[The Economist]

Thanks all for your input.

I am going to play on just whatever map I end up getting, from now on, and not do any funky settler scouting and reloading. I think it adds a lot more to the game when there's more risk and strategy involved. And it also will prolly make the game more rewarding if I manage to pull off a win even starting in a stupid jungle.

BUT- I'm going to drop down to "Regent" difficulty level, just because I think that I'll need to learn some new skills, and probably focus a lot more on running effective wars of conquest, especially when my starting area isn't so great.

Anyone else with any other comments or anything can feel more than free to tell me, I appreciate the input!

 

[Acalanthis]

For me, different days and moods brings different requirements. If I feel insecure and in need of 'cosy' I watch a nice happy ever after Christmas film. If I feel confident and ready to take on all comers, I watch a hard hitting documentary (or the news!). Same with Civ. If I feel insecure...........I play at Cheiftain level and keep restarting until my land looks better than their land. If I feel confident...........I play at a higher level and take whatever the game throws at me. Do what you like when you like is my advice but always remember that the game has amazing depths and that it is good to discover new and challenging things - sometimes!. :rocket2:

 

[ybbor]

Originally posted by The Economist
Thanks all for your input.

I am going to play on just whatever map I end up getting, from now on, and not do any funky settler scouting and reloading.

actually, settler scouting is perfectly fine, if you think that getting a better city location is worth building your capital later (and thus less turns to research, and less units, and slower time expanding)

we are not the people who decide what cheating is, you are. whatever you do you have to live with, not us. i asume for somepeople finding ways to cheat the computer in every way they can find is more fun then playing the game. and that's fine they should keep doing that if that's what's fun for them. it doesn't seem like you like the way you play, but if you try not doing your early map exploration, and think you like your old way better, or that way is more fun, then do that. this isn't about what's right or wrong, it's about what you l.ike, and you're the oly one that can determine that.

 

[TheNiceOne]

As others have said, you're free to do whatever gives you most enjoyment out of the game (as long as you don't compare your results with others without telling about the cheats you use).

But like cracker, I believe you takes away one of the most fun parts of the game if you know how the terrain is and where your opponents starts.

I think its a smart move of you to play without this cheat and rather move back down one difficulty level to compensate.

Also remember that even though your settler is the first activated unit when you start a new game, you should always select the explorer (if you play expansionist) and scout two squares around before you decide whether to build your city on the start square the first turn, or to move it one or two squares first.

Similarily, without an explorer, always start with moving the worker to the square it shall start working on before you build your city. By moving the worker first, you get to see a few more squares, and those squares may be enough for you to find out that one of the squares adjacent to your start position is a much better spot for your capitol.

 

[JazzToucan]

I admit it, too. I shamefully will sit and restart the game until the area in the immediate vicinity around my settler looks good (I don't scout, just look at the initial ground revealed).

Time to get on the 12 step program.

 

[kb2tvl]

For me, GoTM and personal playing are different. For a personal game, I will look at my starting location and decide if the start is what I want or not. If I decide that the sit is workable or if I can move one tile to get a workable spot then I will, if not I will restart.

I will, sometimes, play until I have scouted around and restart on a different map. I will, sometimes, play until the early medieval period and restart.

For GoTMs I play the map as it is given.

I don't think what you are doing is cheating but you do need to figure out what makes a good starting location. For me, a good starting location is determined by how strong a start I want and what level of play I am playing. Probably the strongest start is 3 food bonuses with a visible luxury.

 

[Masquerouge]

The trick of moving the worker first is sooo simple and yet I have never thought of it
I shall put that to good use from now on
And I usually restart 2/3 of my games after 20-30 turns (like no luxuries in sight or another civ is too close or I'm in a small island)

 

[Gainy]

I admit it, too. I shamefully will sit and restart the game until the area in the immediate vicinity around my settler looks good (I don't scout, just look at the initial ground revealed).

Time to get on the 12 step program.

There is absoloulty nothing wrong with this. Just about every HOF'er does this, and alot of regular players do it also (Including me )

 

[Poonchance]

Yeah...I restart if very early I see that I have no hope. Wasteland starting locale (Like vast wasteland) or the old 15 tile island. That's not cool.

I ususally play Monarch. Random everything. Even random Civ. It's cool to play with a different civ and figure out how to adjust your game play to maximize the civ's strengths. I would never pick Expansionist, Commerical...but rock on!

 

[Reynoulds #]

Originally posted by Sir Eric


Civ3 can be as hard or as easy as you want.

This is only True if you haven't seen any of Sir Plebs work.

Relative to the ease at which he a masses a high score, everything is hard.

I would just play for several turns and if it appears to be a tough map, start a new game. Early exploration lets you see the terrain. You should be losing early if the ai is going to be competetive later on in the game.

 

[Atotarho]

I must admit one of the features I first missed from CIVI was shift/12345 and CIVII cheat mode ,pop theres the map , aaahhhhh. I have since cured my self of this in CIVIII.

I do however have a look around at my starting location. If it looks bad Ill do a restart. If Im 20 turns in and the surrounding territory starts looking shabby, unashamed restart again. I know that some will say you shoud press on and have the pleasure of winning from a poor start but lets face it a bad start location usually end in a bad defeat, and I dont wont to spend the next six weeks swimming against the tide just to drown.

 

[CellarDweller22]

Originally posted by Poonchance
Yeah...I restart if very early I see that I have no hope. Wasteland starting locale (Like vast wasteland) or the old 15 tile island. That's not cool.

I ususally play Monarch. Random everything. Even random Civ. It's cool to play with a different civ and figure out how to adjust your game play to maximize the civ's strengths. I would never pick Expansionist, Commerical...but rock on!

First of all, I am a rebel who TRULY belives that there is a way to win with a 15-tile island! :slay:

I agree with the whole rest of your post, poon! Other than the fact that, to compensate for a possible 15-tile island, I play Regent Large maps with 11 other civs seem to be the most efficient for my processor.

The point is, play to have fun! I personally have fun playing some contortionist positions, where a Spaceship victory is actually IMPRESSIVE sometimes... The features of the game are structured to give each civ a chance, no matter how small. So..... take your chances (if you like!) and play EVERY starting position.

For the record, revealing the entire map and then playing is MUCH WORSE than reloading after a battle..... a battle is temporary, but a map is forever.... I do neither, personally.

-- From The Cellar

 

[Godwynn]

I dont think it is cheating, Like in some games where I start in a small penninsula but, 2 other civs are blocking me off from a vast open area. I think that is the AI cheating to keep me a small nations. Heh, They fear me.

 

[TheNiceOne]

Wheter or not this is cheating, isn't very intersting IMHO - unless you start to brag about winning every game without telling that you mean every game with a near-to-perfect starting location.

What should be the issue is if restaring until you get a desirable starting location is what gives you the best CIV3 experience. My belief is that players who rely on a good starting position to have fun, would get more enjoyment (at least in the long run) if they tried the game also with difficult starting positions, but probably on an easier setting.

It is a quite interesting and different game when you lack resources/luxuries, or lack the terrain for fast growth. Not only will you get a more varied game, but your skills will improve, and you will probably soon be able to move back up in difficulty level and start with a difficult position, and still have a nice time and beat the AI.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

The game should be fun. So if you want to restart at 4000BC after a little scouting, feel free to do so. If you want to reload the last turn because of a major oversight (like a stack of enemy units in your borders), feel free to do so. Just don't bragg 'I beat Diety every time!'

But you definetely feel better if you just accept an average start, and fight your way out.


BTW, before the last ptw patch came out, I often retired in 4000BC without moving any unit, just to see the shape of the land - the map generator didn't work properly, it hardly ever generated a Pangea. Also, I often restart when I get wiped out early, just to see if I can do better (surprisingly often, I cannot - if an AI Civ decides to attack you in the very beginning, it always will).

 

[Acalanthis]

I wonder what people consider a good starting position is? I am always a bit torn between chosing the best terrain for population growth versus the best for production. For my first few cities, I usually I settle for immediate and rapid population growth and like to settle by a river on grassland if possible. I always like one luxury within a reasonable distance to keep the citizens happy in the early game before I get temples.

I always consider myself hard done by if I don't have iron, rubber or coal in my terrain especially given the rapid expansion that I do. On a huge map, I have sometimes occupied a quarter or even a third of the map without having access to any of these resources. By the time I find this out though, too many hours have been put in to the game to abandon it and start again.