Italy: The Two Leader Solution

[The Kingmaker]

It comes as something of a shock that up to this point, the Italians have never been represented in-game as a cohesive civ, considering how many of the great artists, writers, merchants and musicians included in the game hail from Italy.

I know ancient Rome is located in the same region, but it does not adequately represent the renaissance Italian civ. By contrast, Greece has previously been represented with both an ancient Hellenic and a medieval Byzantine civ. (And now we're even getting a Macedonian iteration). Why not include a medieval Italian civ? The ancient Greeks were largely a collection of disjointed, rival city states, yet they are portrayed as a united civ. The Italian city-state situation was much the same, yet they are not present.

And then there's Venice. Yes, the portrayal of the Venetian civ in Civ5 will always be controversial. Some players liked playing as a virtual city-state... with only one city to call their own. Other players found this play-style to be too eclectic for their tastes. Now there's been talk of including Genoa as its own civ. If Venice was already controversial, methinks Genoa may be a further step in the wrong direction.

My proposal is simple. Let's be informed by the innovative portrayal of the Greeks in Civ6, with two different leaders reflecting the very different agendas of Athens and Sparta. Why not do the same with Italy? Pick two of the most prominent leaders from different renaissance city-states and craft different play-styles for the Italians while sharing a base civ.

We could even keep Enrico Dandolo and Venice for one of the two if you wish.

The other leader could be Cosimo or Lorenzo de Medici of Florence, who would be patrons of arts where the Venetians focused on more lucrative pursuits.

Or we could even be a little bit daring and feature a Borgia in game. We're focusing on "big" personalities in this game, after all.

Both leaders could share the Condottieri as a UU and the Piazza as a unique district.

Thoughts?

 

[CivLuvah]

I agree. It's a good way to exploit the alternative leaders system. I would prefer for there to be three alternative leaders for Italy for more diverse gameplay based on three prominent city-states during the Renaissance. My picks would be Venice, Florence and Milan; although that would also leave out southern Italy as well.

 

[Siptah]

I like the multiple leaders to be a thing for Italy. Like @CivLuvah, I lean towards 3 leaders though.
a) there were hints towards Genoa in the game files - for me a hint that we won't get (in my eyes very byzantine) Venice, but (much more italian) Genoa instead.
b) Florence would be an obvious choice.
c) Milan. Sicily (and the Kingdom of both Sicilies) would be a bad choice for me to be combined with the Italian civ. That should be separate imho, because it is rather different and deserves different bonuses. If you want south, maybe Naples would be possible. But I'd prefer the whole thing to stay in Renaissance and the the northern part.

Genoa, Milan and Florence would also make a very nice condottiere scenario.

As for leaders:
Florence: Lorenzo di Medici
Milan: Francesco Sforza
Genoa: Andrea Doria (but he wasn't a Doge) or Giovanni Visconti

 

[Metecury]

I agree with pretty much all you said, a Venice/Genoa leader is quite possible, probably one from the medieval era, as a second leader a Renaissance personality would also make sense. However, I think it's quite possible a leader for a united Italy might show up as well.

 

[Siptah]

So what about the civ ability? Something like England, but with Art Museums? Automatically themed and hold more Great Works? Or a plain bonus of more culture and tourism per Great Works?
Commercial bonuses would probably work better for leaders than the whole civ. And a leader for Genoa, if it appears, could have a naval focus.

 

[Metecury]

So what about the civ ability? Something like England, but with Art Museums? Automatically themed and hold more Great Works? Or a plain bonus of more culture and tourism per Great Works?
Commercial bonuses would probably work better for leaders than the whole civ. And a leader for Genoa, if it appears, could have a naval focus.

As a civ ability I'd say a bonus to great people production on top of extra slots for art and writing, perhaps through a unique building or district. If they wanted to make it renaissance themed Italy could also get greatly reduced cost to purchase units but slightly higher maintenance (only if the unit has been bought). Maybe make it so that great works produce gold and faith on top of culture?

 

[CivLuvah]

As a civ ability I'd say a bonus to great people production on top of extra slots for art and writing, perhaps through a unique building or district. If they wanted to make it renaissance themed Italy could also get greatly reduced cost to purchase units but slightly higher maintenance (only if the unit has been bought). Maybe make it so that great works produce gold and faith on top of culture?

Would a mechanic related to the nature of the Italian city-states as city-states work as a unique ability gameplay wise? I was thinking, not like a one-city civ like Venice in Civ5, but an ability for the player to maximize the specialization of each city the player has in the game. Like you can be able to have one city focused more on culture and another focused more on commerce... Bonuses for cities with only one district?

 

[The Kingmaker]

Maybe the Italians could assign each of their cities with a focus like the city-states have: militaristic, or commercial, or cultural, etc.

And then the Piazza unique district you build in any given city would give additional bonuses of the specified type, as if it was a second Commercial Hub, or Theater Square, or whichever.

Venice - 2nd commercial hub
Florence - 2nd theater square
Bologna - 2nd campus
and so forth.

 

[Siptah]

I'm still waiting for another civ that gets larger bonus if two certain districts are combined. Like Germany with the Commercial Hub and Hansa. Italy could get a bonus from combining Commercial Hubs with Theatre Districts.

 

[Txomin]

I agree Italy is a perfect way to make use of the multiple leader system much in the way of Greece. Perhaps you could have the Italian civ ability be something general and not very complicated like a great person bonus but then give the leaders more complex and involved abilities as a way to make them feel more different.

 

[Haig]

Yeah there's gotta be some mysterious reason why there's no Italian city-states in the game..

Papal States would make an interesting choice too, they could have diplomatic pressure and religion as focus, They were very strong in their prime.

 

[Txomin]

The lack of Italian city-states in the game so far gives me extra hope that we'll see more of them in playable form this time around

 

[CivCube]

I'm all about this. I love the Italian Renaissance.

 

[Raz.BELOVED]

I adore this idea! There are so many different distinct regions and cities in italy this would be a great idea.

Naples
Sicily
Two Sicilies
Milan
Genoa
Florence
Papal States
Venice
Sardinia

One could even include Malta and San Marino, the possibilities are endless.

The Biggest issue with it though, is that if there was a post-unification Italy, the capital would still be Rome, which is an obvious conflict.

 

[Metecury]

I adore this idea! There are so many different distinct regions and cities in italy this would be a great idea.

Naples
Sicily
Two Sicilies
Milan
Genoa
Florence
Papal States
Venice
Sardinia

One could even include Malta and San Marino, the possibilities are endless.

The Biggest issue with it though, is that if there was a post-unification Italy, the capital would still be Rome, which is an obvious conflict.

The first capital of the Kingdom of Italy was Turin as Rome was not conquered yet, the second was Florence so there is room for it. Also in 5 we had both Constantinople and Istanbul which are the same city.

 

[Siptah]

Since, for some unknown reason, the capital of Rome is Rome in the english version, Italy could use Roma. But that would be a problem in the Italian version of the game, where, presumably, the capital of Rome is Roma already?

 

[Helel Bright]

Since, for some unknown reason, the capital of Rome is Rome in the english version, Italy could use Roma. But that would be a problem in the Italian version of the game, where, presumably, the capital of Rome is Roma already?

Should be depending on the leader like it happens for Greece. Lorenzo de Medici's capital should be Florence, Cavour's capital should be Turin and so on. Make Rome foundable only if the Romans aren't in the game.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Good thoughts and ideas from everybody.

What I find interesting is that everyone seems amenable to the idea. No one's really voiced any opposition.

Darn it, now I'm really excited to play this civ, and there's no telling if we're even going to get them.

Oh well, at least the idea's out there now.

 

[Txomin]

Just for fun, anyone have ideas for lesser known leaders?
I've been learning about Federico da Montefeltro Duke of Urbino recently and found his life very interesting. He was a condottieri captain who never lost a battle as well as commissioner of one of the largest libraries in Italy.
Obviously I assume we'll get well known leaders, but I always like hearing civ ideas as a way to learn about historical figures I hadn't heard of before.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I think Cesare or Lucrezia Borgia would be interesting. Granted they're more well-known -- their family was notorious. Their daddy might be interesting too, but I doubt Firaxis would want to portray a Pope as a corrupt Mafia boss, even though that's basically what Rodrigo Borgia was.

Lucrezia might be a bit like Catherine de Medici, but more dangerous. Sort of a "power behind the throne" type. I think she'd actually act very sweet and coy and demure and just have this little glint in her eye. She'd agree to all your requests and be very amicable. And then... backstab!

Her brother Cesare would be a bit more overt in his aggression, but I would still expect him to launch a full blown espionage campaign to sabotage all your stuff before declaring war. Do not get on his bad side.

Lucrezia gets my vote, both because the game needs to increase its female quota a bit and because I think she'd be really challenging to play against.