It's All About The Numbaz: CE vs SE

[KMadCandy]

Lightbulbed GSs provide a ton of early game beakers that can be leveraged for early liberalism which can be leveraged for renaissance military tech which can be leveraged to expand your empire which translates into even more overall beakers. People always forget to factor in lightbulbed GSs and although a CE will have a gpfarm, a SE will have more GSs overall and will generally have them in greater numbers EARLIER as well.

futurehermit knows that i can compare different difficulties easier than he can since i swap around a lot .

if you're playing SE and lightbulbing techs but not beating up everybody at once, you can trade some of your lightbulbed stuff for techs to backfill things that you skipped. that can get you zillions (approximately) of beakers for your lightbulb. that tends to work better on higher difficulties than lower levels, because the AI has more techs available to trade. even without the pyramids, once you know how to work it you can get ahead of at least some civs to have trade bait. how many can depend on difficulty, who the opponents are and what mood they're in, what the weather's like, blah blah.

of course on settler you won't really need to get zillions of beakers for one lightbulb, you'll be so much faster than they are that even without trades you'll have tanks when they're defending with longbows. but it's a PITA wasting your own time researching the stupid pre-reqs to get what you really want, even when it takes just 3 turns or whatever. so altho they tech faster the higher you go, if you haven't pissed everybody off yet you can use that to tech faster yourself. which makes it more exciting, at least for me sometimes. and sometimes, i want to beat up longbows with modern armor.

 

[madscientist]

Another thing that bothers me about the SE, for it to be effective you pretty much have to get the Pyramids for early Representation. Can this be done consistently on Emporer level and above? I've found that in general building any early wonder severly limits early expansion.

Also, if you assume that you have gotten early representation with pyramids, you should also assume that all of a CE economies cottages have at least turned into Hamlets in that time. And yes, I almost always play financial, and very often get a starting spot with rivers and grassland/floodplain.

Pyramids can be built up to emperor (I have played past that level). One reason why I think Industrious is a powerful trait. AS Futurehermit mentioned you do not need them, but fo myself I have had trouble running a SE without them.

Onereason why alot of people prefer PHIL as the best trait.

The thing to do with the pyramids is to get 2 other cities built fast, then start working on them using mines or chopping. Yes it takes a while but worth the return (it's alot quicker than waiting for cottages to mature )

 

[mrt144]

I think one of the fallacies of an SE vs. CE comparison is that while you are running a SE you can put in some work on a rotating basis for cottages to grow so that the transition isnt as harsh as it could be. I think people think that while you run a SE you shouldnt ever work a cottage or two or three, but what are you really using those plains rivers for anyway?

 

[lukep]

2 things which are always forgotten in the CE/SE debates : growth & production

A CE city will, in the 50 first turns of its existence and on a reasonable land, grow to 6-7 size and will have production worth of 300-350 hammers

In the same time, the FE city (no specialist yet, only farms), will grow in the 8-10 range and have at least 400-450 hammers. If the happiness limit is low, you funnel the extra food in even more hammers.

Let say it is 100 hammers advantage, that is 3 axemen. Take 4 cities like this and you have the army that will take Monty capital for 250 Gold which is much more than the difference in gold the cottages would got you.

Or you could have worked more mines and build the shiny wonder(s) in your backyard. With a SE and the right land (but not insane) and right leader, it is routinely possible to grab ALL stone wonders on monarch. You then get GPP from wonders (priest and engineers, nice), without any specialist !!!

the key point about SE is flexibility, it can build, research and war wery well. You choose one, or two, and you are set.

In contrast, CE choices and play are much more constrained, due to the slow growth. Of course in late game, CE is stronger (or at least easier to be strong), but my games rarely go further than cavalery or tanks, and even for space races, i often dont bother to switch to CE

PS: i'm working actually on an excel sheet for growth calculation. Will post it when finished, but first results are striking

 

[madscientist]

2 things which are always forgotten in the CE/SE debates : growth & production

A CE city will, in the 50 first turns of its existence and on a reasonable land, grow to 6-7 size and will have production worth of 300-350 hammers

In the same time, the FE city (no specialist yet, only farms), will grow in the 8-10 range and have at least 400-450 hammers. If the happiness limit is low, you funnel the extra food in even more hammers.

Let say it is 100 hammers advantage, that is 3 axemen. Take 4 cities like this and you have the army that will take Monty capital for 250 Gold which is much more than the difference in gold the cottages would got you.

Or you could have worked more mines and build the shiny wonder(s) in your backyard. With a SE and the right land (but not insane) and right leader, it is routinely possible to grab ALL stone wonders on monarch. You then get GPP from wonders (priest and engineers, nice), without any specialist !!!

the key point about SE is flexibility, it can build, research and war wery well. You choose one, or two, and you are set.

In contrast, CE choices and play are much more constrained, due to the slow growth. Of course in late game, CE is stronger (or at least easier to be strong), but my games rarely go further than cavalery or tanks, and even for space races, i often dont bother to switch to CE

PS: i'm working actually on an excel sheet for growth calculation. Will post it when finished, but first results are striking

Very well described and this is my finding for a CE from the beginning.

I will add that if you have patience and get levees, US civic, factories/powerplants you can overrun the world with modern warfare using a CE.

 

[Belisar]

Okay, let's compare 1 single cottage (growing to town) and 1 single scientist specialist.

your analysis is flawed because of:

1. Food makes things much more complicated. By running specialists, you cant grow as quick as you could. This is the weakness of SE and these calculations. But we were talking about beakers now, weren't we?

Food, production and commerce are linked, so you can not compare a tile that is self-supported (a grassland cottage -> town) and a specialist that needs another tile (or tiles!) to support it.

Specialists shine if a city has food ressources, they are poor if you need 2 farms to support 1 specialist (this would mean 3 pop only to run 1 specialist)
Thats one reason why early game food is the most important ressource.

 

[Airefuego]

1. Food makes things much more complicated. By running specialists, you cant grow as quick as you could. This is the weakness of SE and these calculations.

I don't think shortage of food is usually a problem of SE... usually there is more food under SE than CE, as you should be farming a lot early.

Of course you shouldn't run so many specialists that you stop growth (unless the happy cap makes it a good idea)

The (self-invented) rule I applied was to start adding specialists only after all good bonus tiles were being worked (corn, gold etc). Then I added regular farmed tiles or a specialist, depending upon circumstances, each time the city grew, to ensure constant growth and constant use of specialists.

 

[Beamup]

Specialists shine if a city has food ressources, they are poor if you need 2 farms to support 1 specialist (this would mean 3 pop only to run 1 specialist)
Thats one reason why early game food is the most important ressource.

An excellent point that brings up a factor generally ignored in CE/SE comparisons - the map. The SE thrives on food resources - the CE thrives on grassland. Concentrated vs. distributed food, if you will.

Taking it a bit further, a map where food resources are abundant and widely distributed so that each city can have at least 2-3 favors SE. OTOH, a map without as many food resources, but plenty of grassland, favors CE - particularly if there is one spot with highly concentrated food sources to make a good GPF.

 

[futurehermit]

yes, trying to force a SE onto a CE-favoured map and vice versa will always be inefficient. take what the map gives you and go with the economy (usually hybrid is best) that you are given.

i always dot map out my first 6-8 cities and then examine what they will do best. how many production cities do i have out of the 8? how many commerce cities do i have out of the 8? how many could run 6+ specialists? if i have majority production cities and some close neigbours I know I'm going to war. If I have majority commerce cities and some close neighbours I know I'm going to have to be diplomatic until I get advanced tech. If I have majority high food cities I know I'm running a SE.

 

[DarkSchneider]

For production while running a CE economy, I rely on mines and leave a few forests for every town. Once I've researched liberalism, I generally use it to to discover Nationalism, and use that to draft macemen/riflemen for my army. non draft production doesn't really ramp up until the levies have been built and Mining Inc has been founded.

So far I've been getting pretty lucky with my starting locations though, floodplains, hills, rivers and forests.

I keep thinking that a CE with one GP farm, and one globe theater draft town would probably be the best of all.

 

[Airefuego]

One massive hammer city is nice too

 

[futurehermit]

For production while running a CE economy, I rely on mines and leave a few forests for every town. Once I've researched liberalism, I generally use it to to discover Nationalism, and use that to draft macemen/riflemen for my army. non draft production doesn't really ramp up until the levies have been built and Mining Inc has been founded.

So far I've been getting pretty lucky with my starting locations though, floodplains, hills, rivers and forests.

I keep thinking that a CE with one GP farm, and one globe theater draft town would probably be the best of all.

At higher levels you simply need production if you have any designs on attacking the AI and waiting until after nationalism can be difficult depending on your starting circumstances. A CE + GP farm + production cities is of course good, but also may not be ideal if your starting terrain lends itself to a different approach.

Some games my first 4 cities are poor commerce city candidates but are fantastic production candidates. Are you going to force cottages onto a city that is not well designed to handle it?

 

[Ultimocrat]

In my opinion, the biggest problem with the late-game SE is obtaining enough health and happiness (which likely involves a huge number of buildings), NOT the fact that you're "only" getting 6 (beakers+gold) from most of your specialists instead of 7 commerce from a mature town.

If you can get enough health and happiness, then the larger cities in the SE have the potential to make up for the 6 vs. 7 difference due to larger trade routes (In a size 30 city, it's quite likely that foreign trade routes are worth 2-3 more commerce each than in a size 20 city). Of course, if you're forced to run Environmentalism instead of Free Market, I would consider that a health problem, and the trade route advantage of the SE would be nullified.

Also, a seldom-mentioned point is that the larger population you obtain with a SE can give you a substantial edge in Diplomatic victory.

 

[nealhunt]

Pretty much every thread on this topic has been chock full of absolute garbage. There are vast numbers of situational variables that can easily overpower general considerations and summaries full of assumptions. Pundits on both sides of the CE/SE debate are more willing to blithely ignore material facts than US election candidates.

After ridiculous numbers of "I'm right, you're wrong" statements, here's what every single thread eventually resolves to:

1) SE takes off faster.

2) CE is better for long haul.

3) Some form of hybrid/transition is best, but the details of optimizing hybrid ratio and transition timing are dependent on the game situation.

 

[futurehermit]

Pretty much every thread on this topic has been chock full of absolute garbage. There are vast numbers of situational variables that can easily overpower general considerations and summaries full of assumptions. Pundits on both sides of the CE/SE debate are more willing to blithely ignore material facts than US election candidates.

After ridiculous numbers of "I'm right, you're wrong" statements, here's what every single thread eventually resolves to:

1) SE takes off faster.

2) CE is better for long haul.

3) Some form of hybrid/transition is best, but the details of optimizing hybrid ratio and transition timing are dependent on the game situation.

Well I'm pleased that an absolute expert has come in and provided a neat summary of the lengthy debates that have been had on the topic. Although I say that tongue in cheek, that is a fairly succint summary of some of the major points in the argumentation and I would say they are quite true.

 

[vicawoo]

Turning up the culture slider hurts in CE but not SE.
CE, you're stuck at 4-5 commerce until printing press, and you're usually at village for a long time. CE you can use plantation commerce better.
SE needs food or rivers/water early. SE requires less workers (under a happy cap). SE requires a greater happy/health cap. SE allows more whipping.

And pyramids are pretty hard to get without stone/industrious/philosophical. Obsolete's strategy has amazing synergy (as in, he doesn't build wonders to prove the production capability, he does it because he needs the GPP, he gets wonders like oracle/liberalism/internet to fill in the holes when his economy becomes weaker than a CE, he doesn't war a lot early because he has no non-wonder production, GP need to be settled for production)

 

[InvisibleStalke]

yes, trying to force a SE onto a CE-favoured map and vice versa will always be inefficient. take what the map gives you and go with the economy (usually hybrid is best) that you are given.

i always dot map out my first 6-8 cities and then examine what they will do best. how many production cities do i have out of the 8? how many commerce cities do i have out of the 8? how many could run 6+ specialists? if i have majority production cities and some close neigbours I know I'm going to war. If I have majority commerce cities and some close neighbours I know I'm going to have to be diplomatic until I get advanced tech. If I have majority high food cities I know I'm running a SE.

This is the crux of it in my opinion. Arguing one economy is better than another always is pointless. Arguing for a particular leader and a particular map is much easier. I usually find the map makes much more difference to me than the leader traits. I've been forced to run a mainly cottage economy with a philo leader who started alone on an island full of jungle and few food resources outside the capital. And had games where there simply is no large swathe of grassland to put cottages.

With a mix of terrain I always end up with a Hybrid. And that combines the best of both - cottage cities on good cottageable terrain that pump in a steady and growing stream of commerce. And specialist cities I can whip when needed and get early GPP from before my GP farm takes over.

 

[nealhunt]

Well I'm pleased that an absolute expert has come in and provided a neat summary of the lengthy debates that have been had on the topic.

My post was intended to be more goofy and less harsh than it comes across.

Mea culpa.

 

[lilnev]

I think even a CE should run scientists in one or two cities early, before a "true GP farm" comes online (NE and hopefully GL). The return on investment for the first few GSs is just so high. In some cases, I don't get the true GP farm set up until very late. But I always want the Philo bulb and at least one academy. Call it a "CE-leaning hybrid", perhaps; it's my most common style.

peace,
lilnev

 

[madscientist]

Turning up the culture slider hurts in CE but not SE.
CE, you're stuck at 4-5 commerce until printing press, and you're usually at village for a long time. CE you can use plantation commerce better.
SE needs food or rivers/water early. SE requires less workers (under a happy cap). SE requires a greater happy/health cap. SE allows more whipping.

And pyramids are pretty hard to get without stone/industrious/philosophical. Obsolete's strategy has amazing synergy (as in, he doesn't build wonders to prove the production capability, he does it because he needs the GPP, he gets wonders like oracle/liberalism/internet to fill in the holes when his economy becomes weaker than a CE, he doesn't war a lot early because he has no non-wonder production, GP need to be settled for production)

As I am finding out in my RPC Bismark game, those wonders in Berlin do several things

1) Increase GPPs.
2) Settled GPs give you consistent and steady hammers, gold, and beakers.
3) You get the wonder's benefits, something not mentioned much when his strat in mentioned but a big deal:

Spiral Minerat +2 gold be religious building, what and economy
Univ. of Sankore: +2 beakers per religious building, what science
Stonehenge: 1/2 the power of a creative leader!
Oracle: Free tech and early forges!
Pyramids: Representation in the BC!
Hag: 50% worker production to clear massive jungles
Chichen Itza: Free +25% city defence
Taj: Free GA!!!
Mauseleum: Free extra 8 tuns to a GA on marathon speed!!!
Parthanon: +50% GPP. Feeds into the cycle!!!


Those wonder benefits are not trivial.

Also in his origional post he limited himself to 2 cities, if you expand to several cities as usual then the economy rocks and you can get the tech lead, eliminating the need for fillin techs.