Its Boring

Discussion getting a little philosophical here.

I think that every Civ I've played has always been hit or miss, in the sense that if you don't get a setup with good land, good opponents, etc, the game can be boring and it can be not fun to finish. But if you get the right start, it can be so amazingly fun.

I think that's true here in Civ VI, too, I just find that the percentage of starts that lead to super fun games is lower than in previous titles.
 
Moderator Action: Two other active threads on the same topic as this one merged.
 
Still playing, 2 civs to find. There was another horseman in the fog too,

WTH, at least they don't upgrade. Had some problem with musket barbs that kept spawning in a somewhat isolated camp. They spawned and wandered enough that eventually reached my nearest city some 20 tiles away.
 
+1 for Civilization VII returning to Civilization II's realistic art, scary sound effects and serious script.

Also, for God's sake create an AI that uses strategy. Something that I can beat on Prince but which doesn't need to cheat to beat me sometimes on Emperor difficulty. I don't mind if it cheats on Deity.

A lot of people have responded to these complaints about the amount of stylisation, saying that the game needs to attract younger audiences, et cetera. If that is truly the case, perhaps they should make two different games. I don't believe it, myself. I think they make these games the way they do because there aren't enough passionate people working on game design or holding the purse strings. This way is just easier. I remember that when I started to play Civ 2 I was a bit young for it, but I grew into it. It was different to Warcraft and other strategy games, and I came to appreciate the realism, the depth and the scope. Civilization II tried to be more like a simulation. God knows how Buddhism or archaeology can be used in geopolitics. I'm not saying I am strictly opposed to a Utopia victory, but you will have to sell me on it. Maybe leave it to the next Scifi spin-off.

< Loving my 60s bling default pic.
 
+1 for Civilization VII returning to Civilization II's realistic art, scary sound effects and serious script.
9959-sid-meier-s-civilization-ii-windows-screenshot-civilization.gif


Elvis says hi.
 
Not just that, but in Civ II: Test of Time, in the Fantasy Campaign, there was a bird race that could settle on clouds, which means that this would not be new to the Civ series at all.

270714-civ2test_005.jpg


Who does not want to settle on soft, fluffy clouds?

Oh, and units in Civ V can walk on clouds:

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Also, for God's sake create an AI that uses strategy. Something that I can beat on Prince but which doesn't need to cheat to beat me sometimes on Emperor difficulty. I don't mind if it cheats on Deity.

So, you wouldn't mind waiting a few years more for 3-4 different AI scripts. Really, writing AI isn't something simple and easy, you can't just plug in some numbers and expect the AI to be on a whole different level. If it was the case, then playing chess would be trivial and easy (which is much simpler than Civ)
 
Just for information , i closed barbs in one two of my games. The result is AI players became unbelievable powerful in the early and mid era. So barbs are giving hell to ai more than us i guess :D
So we just need a slider to adjust the percentage, how much of all the Barbarians shall focus on the human player. :thumbsup:
(say 20 - 80%)
 
So, you wouldn't mind waiting a few years more for 3-4 different AI scripts. Really, writing AI isn't something simple and easy, you can't just plug in some numbers and expect the AI to be on a whole different level. If it was the case, then playing chess would be trivial and easy (which is much simpler than Civ)

It's quite possible to just create an AI that is as strong as a team can manage, and then decrease some of its potential for other difficulties. For example by changing some weights, adding some randomness, turning some functions off. And creating a level of difficulty comparable to emperor without cheats really isn't as impossible as you may think. While longterm strategic planning may be very hard to get right, the tactical game is indeed quite like chess, and creating a chess bot that can beat average players in the tactical game really isn't that hard anymore these days. AIs can also win out on humans in some domains easily, like finding proper balances of working on development while at war (which many human players kind of forget about), combat calculations, paying attention to all available data every turn etc. I'd say making an emperor level AI without cheats is quite doable, and an immortal level AI might also still be within reach even without resorting to machinelearning technology.
But I think that's probably overkill anyway, as most players really just want the AI to not be completely abysmal in some visible aspects, like how we now often see ranged units that can shoot just pass the turn instead. If those types of visible mistakes were eliminated, I don't think you'd hear nearly as much complaining. You never hear someone complain about how horrible the AI is at picking policies, because people just don't see it.
 
Of course, I'm not defending those stupid mistakes like not firing with an Archer from inside a city when it could. But it's hardly a matter of only changing numbers too.

You need to adapt routines to deal with lack of information from turned off functions (some of which may be recursively called in a good number of times), absurd values that might come up if you use diffferent weights (using a too small weight and let it underflow, or downright divide by zero, when trying to predict the scenario a few turns later), or masking randomness (imagine if a Tank retreats against your Musketman just because the RNG said so). It's also harder to debug and tune those values. How would you objectively going to measure if it's a good balance for Settler or Deity? If I try to change a certain value for this difficulty, how much will it interfere with other mechanics? If I introduce a new mechanic or change an existing one in an expansion, would I have to fine-tune everything again?

Finally, I'd say that humans are better at tactical strategies in a reasonable time. In chess, you always have the same board, the same pieces and the same starting position. In Civ, it can be quite hard to evaluate the board right now, and what future positions are more valuable, with pieces and more pieces chaging, entering and leaving the board every turn, with more capabilities and more freedom of movement.
 
There are indeed difficulties with such an approach, and some concessions would have to be made. Having these difficulty levels remain stable and finely tuned like you said would probably take too much work to be worth it. But I feel that isn't really necessary either, what difficulty is 'emperor' anyway? Emperor in Civ 6 definitely seems easier than in Civ 5. People will just end up playing the game and figuring out what difficulty level they feel is most appropriate for them.
And yes, it'll take some more effort here and there to ensure it works well without bugs and ridiculous behaviors, it's never going to be as easy as just making one difficulty. It's just a tradeoff between more work (maybe approx 20% more on making different difficulty levels?) and delivering higher quality. I believe it would be one worth making in that the costs of extra programmer hours would pay themselves back through higher customer satisfaction.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that humans are faster than computers. Chess bots that are impossible to beat for the vast majority of people can calculate their moves in milliseconds. Civ is a different game, but there will be plenty of solutions that can also deliver good results in milliseconds. Perhaps creating one comparable to top humans in that kind of thinking time is very hard, but creating one that can win against weak players and feels like a threat to good humans really isn't far out of reach. Especially since the nature of the game allows for the possibility that the enemy sometimes has more troops.
It's noteworthy that the Civ 5 AI code wastes most of its processing power on pathfinding, in an environment where pathfinding really isn't that important. Instead of using its processing power to analyze different ways of approaching an attack, it spends it resources on recalculating the fastest path to the next patrol spot for one of those archers that appears to just run around randomly. And then it calculates it again next turn. All while doing relatively expensive things on every step of the A* algorithm used. And all that for terrible results, such as it adjusting its path based on a unit standing between mountains that are still 10 turn away. There is so much room there for improvement even in just that aspect, that I don't believe that an emperor/immortal level AI in reasonable thinking time is out of reach at all.
 
There is so much room there for improvement even in just that aspect, that I don't believe that an emperor/immortal level AI in reasonable thinking time is out of reach at all.

It's not out of reach, but Firaxis clearly don't care and don't seem to have sufficient incentive to change their minds.

As it stands, I have been able to out-speed AI turns (excepting broken UI blocking movement) since civ 5, but as you point out this is only because the games are very poorly optimized. This is not something humanly attainable in an optimized game, at least not without a few sci-fi modifications to the human :p.
 
The AI algorithms, as far as I know, use a leaf-searching method to decide the next move. They evaluate pretty much every possible future positions of the board.

The problem with implementing that kind of AI is asymmetrical information and constantly changing boards. Not only they have to account for the current positions, but have to deal with uncertainties. The AI has then to take that information and calculate, for example, what's the probablility of an attack from a flank, and use an algorithm to decide what's the best move to do.

Maybe some kind of fuzzy logic might be implemented in these cases, but most algorithms are quite deterministic and may lead to the AI reacts as if it were constantly in doubt about what's the best move. For example, moving back a couple of units may trigger the "safe to attack" behavour, but when it advances one of them, it may trigger again the "back to base to defend" behaviour.

Not to mention that the strategic planning behaviour can also be flawed (and influence the tactical planning). For example, the devs might stipulate that simply having lots of campuses is good for a Science Victory. We, on the other hand, will discover new and inventive ways to reach it (focus on production and do a late-game science rush, making projects to rush through the Great People, building Big Ben to buy the last ones with gold, use Jesuit Education to faith-buy lots of buildings etc). Machine-learning algorithms may be implemented for that, I know, but what's the computational price for that? Wouldn't you be able to cheat it?
 
The AI algorithms, as far as I know, use a leaf-searching method to decide the next move. They evaluate pretty much every possible future positions of the board.

If that's what the civ games did they would be way more powerful than they are now. But it'd also have to be a lot slower. From what I've seen in the civ 5 code, it basically selected a bunch of potential moves from some options (bombard a unit, go heal, take a city) with targets. Then it applied a simple priority to each of these based on what kind of tactical strategy it wants to pursue. Then it just starts looping through the moves, doing the ones that still remain possible.
From what I've seen in a lot of AI testgames, that system could still be mostly there in civ 6 (it definitely still includes tactical movetypes as seen in the xml). The only big change I've seen is that they split some possible tactical moves out and made them part of operational behaviortrees, which ends up forbidding some of the move options. I suppose with the goal of making them more 'coordinated'.

It doesn't really do any of the higher level thinking such as dealing with uncertainties or calculating probabilities. As far as I can tell it doesn't even directly consider that the enemy gets to take a next turn and how to affect that. In civ 5 it does calculate some 'danger areas', but not really in the sense of 'oh, if I dont kill unit x, it can shoot at position y'. It's also noteworthy that the civ 6 AI appears to cheat in the sense that at least some of its functions, -such as deciding whether to attack cities- takes in information about units outside of its vision.

Something more fuzzy with weights could do better, and there are plenty of ways of accomplishing fuzziness without having them become indecisive.
One of the most effective methods would probably be to use a similar style to the alphago system, walking through a bunch of potentially decent moves and their followups (I think they just use a variant of minimax), and analyzing the strength of the resulting board positions with a well trained neural net. That could do really well on the civ tactical game.
Personally for the civ tactical game, I'd probably stay safe and stick to something cheap, like an initial algorithm that determines the order in which the units will move, then loop through all possible moves for every unit, doing a handcrafted board-score evaluation on each outcome, after which the best one is picked. It can be supplemented by for example pre-selecting a few targets on which damage done is especially valued. Also include things like distance to a target city in the evaluation, so that pathfinding can be completely avoided (bugpathing can be used well for mountains etc). That should work well and remain cheap (milliseconds) without compromising on extensibility.

Sadly machinelearning doesnt seem advanced enough yet to be able to do things like figuring out longterm plans on its own, especially not with such a massive amount of inputs as civ has. So I think well probably be stuck either preconfiguring certain gameplans, or sticking to more weighted based systems like the civ games have been using. These can still be surprisingly powerful though if tweaked correctly and if assisted through statemachine-like systems (to for example force them in a war-state). Top players may beat them handily, but most players, who dont know the exact ideal balances, could end up being outpaced by at least one or two civs every game.
 
The AI algorithms, as far as I know, use a leaf-searching method to decide the next move. They evaluate pretty much every possible future positions of the board.
Chess algorithms do; not because that's the only kind of AI algorithms that have been tried, but because those are the ones that have been most successful for a game like chess where you only get to make one move and everything on the board affects everything else (more or less) and have to play on an even footing with human experts.

Civ 6 is a much simpler problem, because moving one piece to attack city A doesn't prevent you from moving another piece to defend city B, your attack on city A and defense of city B are almost entirely independent problems, and your audience would accept a minimal level of competency.
 
Don't worry OP, it's Civ fanatics and there will always be an army of people telling you that your opinion is wrong.

I also dislike Civ 6 graphics.
Me too and the game is no fun so far, due to the AI.
 
I'm actually starting a new game, so it can't be too boring. I want to see these patch changes and play as Australia. I'm also trying the real starting locations official map. I want to see how much more dangerous these barbarians really are.

Another problem I didn't mention earlier is one cause of boredom in the later turns especially are the long turn times. Why have turn times gotten so bad in Civ5 and Civ6? Civ4 had really quick turns times and a better AI to boot. I have to think it's because of 1UPT. I don't want to get into another 1UPT argument, but I have to ask. Are these long times worth 1upt? Or perhaps I'm mistaken, and it's the 3D graphics that are really upping the turn times. Either way, it's not worth it imho. The long turn times do make the later eras more boring. It makes me less likely to declare war (which adds to the boredom factor) and wage long wars.
 
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