It's nice to be a trend setter...

[prince_caspian]

When you know what you do hurts AIs a lot.

Now that AIs loves DOFs so much, the best thing that can ever happen is you are the first to accept a DOF, other AIs DOF you, form a bloc blablabla.

Then a CS gets bullied by a non-DOF AI and wants you to denounce it, so you do the right thing becoming the first civ to ever denounce anyone.

Naturally you get dogpiled in return.

Few turns later all your friends proceed to denounce, and then a few centuries later all of them DOW the same AI, and that AI either dies from the overwhelming numbers or is so backward because it can't spam RAs despite being flush in cash.

Then proceed to win on your friends' behalf!

 

[Miravlix]

Yeah, playing the diplomacy has become a strategy from vanillas wheel of fortune.

I'm just thinking when I can form DoF with all opposing Civs the new system might be slightly to friendly.

 

[PhilBowles]

Yeah, playing the diplomacy has become a strategy from vanillas wheel of fortune.

I'm just thinking when I can form DoF with all opposing Civs the new system might be slightly to friendly.

Nah, I used to do exactly the same in vanilla all the time once I'd figured out the DoF/denunciation system, and that your relations with third parties were actually more important diplomatically than your relations with the civ you're dealing with. It's just easier now that the AI makes DoFs so much more readily.

At a similar point in my current game - Isabella Denounced me but seems a bit of a loner; I responded with my denunciation and my friends William and Askia joined in. The DoW will be coming soon...

 

[Brichals]

I think I've found DoFs harder to get :S At least the diplomacy has definitely become more reasonable. I often end up in blocs of 3-4 civs. Any aggressive Civ rapidly gets dogpiled in my games.

 

[Althiosk]

I had a lovely thing going where I had a block of four friendly civs-- elizabeth, catherine, isabella-- and alexander, hostile from the second turn after meeting him and denounced everyone. So I denounced him back, and the lady emperors joined in and we had a great thing going.

Eventually, I took some troops over to try to dislodge alexander, as he was growing far too fast. Scary force. Unfortunatly, he's tucked in a damn mountain range, and is proving hard to dislodge (if I can just get that citadel in there, I can take his cap...).

Unfortunatly, half my friendly bloc fell apart, and they all think I'm a warmonger, despite everyone having denounced alexander. What do I have to do, wait for him to declare wars?

 

[prince_caspian]

I had a lovely thing going where I had a block of four friendly civs-- elizabeth, catherine, isabella-- and alexander, hostile from the second turn after meeting him and denounced everyone. So I denounced him back, and the lady emperors joined in and we had a great thing going.

Eventually, I took some troops over to try to dislodge alexander, as he was growing far too fast. Scary force. Unfortunatly, he's tucked in a damn mountain range, and is proving hard to dislodge (if I can just get that citadel in there, I can take his cap...).

Unfortunatly, half my friendly bloc fell apart, and they all think I'm a warmonger, despite everyone having denounced alexander. What do I have to do, wait for him to declare wars?

I find in GAK there's not much point in being so friendly if you want to hit on an AI. They spam DOFs yes but once you DOW someone all the good will you gathered will fall down like the house of cards. This is the caveat of diplomacy and victory paths in GAK - if you want war, you can never be friends with anyone, forget about RAs. If you want cultural and space, then be satisfied with 4 cities and be friendly with everyone, no wars, no hanky-panky with espionage and converting cities (at least until industrial). Sad but true.

 

[Andulias]

I find in GAK there's not much point in being so friendly if you want to hit on an AI. They spam DOFs yes but once you DOW someone all the good will you gathered will fall down like the house of cards. This is the caveat of diplomacy and victory paths in GAK - if you want war, you can never be friends with anyone, forget about RAs. If you want cultural and space, then be satisfied with 4 cities and be friendly with everyone, no wars, no hanky-panky with espionage and converting cities (at least until industrial). Sad but true.

Not quite. Like someone else already mentioned you have to make your allies hate the rival civ you want to conquer through denouncements. And sometimes I feel the warmongering penalty doesn't really apply much to civs you are at good terms with.

 

[thadian]

Depends, sometimes the cause of AI hate won't change - they covet your lands, your a warmonger, your trying to win in the same way, etc. meaning the diplomatic scene can easily go toward the negative but once someone changes their mind your bloc can end quickly. Seems to me that you have to denounce first. If i meet someone who is already negative for reasons like covet my lands or something that i have no control over, i denounce IMMEDIATELY.

To avoid the dogpile, any AI that starts off closer to positives i will start selling all my resources embassy, open borders to etc.

One thing i hate is that gifts of gold don't seem to help any. Ive given 500 gold once for free to an AI to test this and no better relations. I like being able to improve relations sooner than later, and not being able to gift my way into good relations sucks. If you don't get into a bloc, you will never get more than 1-2 DOF's and thus no RA's.

 

[Barghaest]

I had a good bloc going one game... Ethiopia (the leading empire) met me and maintained friendly relations early on... England and Celts were on my continent and kept attacking me so he denounced them. Japan was on a nearby island and had originally backstabbed me but also became a steadfast ally with myself and Ethiopia. Eventually found Sweden, they joined us then Korea (reluctant at first but after I shared espionage related to Persia sneak attacking them, they became an ally) and finally the Inca who joined us as well. Game progressed with us as friends for the longest time until after the Celts (down to one city now) attacked me for the umpteenth time I got tired of them and wiped them out. Ethiopia turned on me (probably didn't help I had one black mark from him for stealing tech but he forgave me because of all the positive bonuses at the time), but the others stayed WITH me and turned on him (I was second empire he was first). I formed a defensive pact with my remaining four allies and kept trying to antagonize Ethiopia into attacking me (by this time he had wiped out England and was sharing my continent - oh, it's okay for HIM to wipe out a civ but not me?)....

Unfortunately, the DP was almost my downfall as Inca decided to attack Sweden dragging me into the war and suffering a denouncement from Japan (who liked Inca more); however Korea stayed with me and attacked Inca, by this time Ethiopia was rapidly approaching a diplomatic victory and I couldn't compete with his economy to steal his 17 CS allies (I did purchase an Engineer with faith to beat him to UN since I saw it constructing in his capital where I had a spy) so I took the opportunity of massive global war to just start wiping out all the CS until there wasn't enough for him to win (his votes from CS equaled my votes from UN and allies) while I hammered out a Space Victory (my spies having helped me surpass him in tech as we entered the Information era).

Never got into actual fighting with Ethiopia (they did threaten me with nukes, but never actually attacked) but between the Inca, Japan, and the various CS I did have some impressive air, sea and land battles late game (almost every empire was late Atomic if not early Information).

 

[glaivemaster]

Depends, sometimes the cause of AI hate won't change - they covet your lands, your a warmonger, your trying to win in the same way, etc. meaning the diplomatic scene can easily go toward the negative but once someone changes their mind your bloc can end quickly. Seems to me that you have to denounce first. If i meet someone who is already negative for reasons like covet my lands or something that i have no control over, i denounce IMMEDIATELY.

To avoid the dogpile, any AI that starts off closer to positives i will start selling all my resources embassy, open borders to etc.

One thing i hate is that gifts of gold don't seem to help any. Ive given 500 gold once for free to an AI to test this and no better relations. I like being able to improve relations sooner than later, and not being able to gift my way into good relations sucks. If you don't get into a bloc, you will never get more than 1-2 DOF's and thus no RA's.

I had a game recently where I met Gandhi whose only diplomatic modifier towards me was coveting my lands. Eventually I spread my religion to him, then bought into an embassy with him, then he joined in one of my friendship blocs (I had 3 separate ones at various times), and finally was willing to sign a DOF with me. It took a while and some patience to turn it around, but by the end of the game he was one of the only two who didn't hate me for taking out Darius.

Of course, it may have helped that this was an archipelago, and that I eventually held the largest 'army', such that coveting my lands was not a very powerful modifier, but I do like that I was able to turn him from enemy to best friend through trying.

 

[thadian]

the other day i beat khan in a war and he joined mine and became angry with his ally, monty.

 

[PhilBowles]

I had a game recently where I met Gandhi whose only diplomatic modifier towards me was coveting my lands. Eventually I spread my religion to him, then bought into an embassy with him, then he joined in one of my friendship blocs (I had 3 separate ones at various times), and finally was willing to sign a DOF with me. It took a while and some patience to turn it around, but by the end of the game he was one of the only two who didn't hate me for taking out Darius.

Of course, it may have helped that this was an archipelago, and that I eventually held the largest 'army', such that coveting my lands was not a very powerful modifier, but I do like that I was able to turn him from enemy to best friend through trying.

Works on other maps too - I shared a continent with Genghis, who coveted my lands although he wasn't my closest neighbour. His enemy Attila declared war on me, and I ended up defending Karakorum against the Hunnic horde. It took a long time before Genghis was sufficiently impressed to add the 'fought against a common enemy' modifier, but soon after he did he offered a DoF, which lasted through the rest of the game (including several shared wars, both ones that he asked me to join and that I asked him to join - the latter something I rarely secured in vanilla). The coveted lands modifier didn't reappear even after he did settle in lands bordering my territory (or after I took Attila's Court right outside his own capital).

 

[prince_caspian]

Works on other maps too - I shared a continent with Genghis, who coveted my lands although he wasn't my closest neighbour. His enemy Attila declared war on me, and I ended up defending Karakorum against the Hunnic horde. It took a long time before Genghis was sufficiently impressed to add the 'fought against a common enemy' modifier, but soon after he did he offered a DoF, which lasted through the rest of the game (including several shared wars, both ones that he asked me to join and that I asked him to join - the latter something I rarely secured in vanilla). The coveted lands modifier didn't reappear even after he did settle in lands bordering my territory (or after I took Attila's Court right outside his own capital).

This is the thing I'm having in GAK. I can't unilaterally DOW people, not even once, or else I will get the warmonger diplo penalty. I can defend, even strike back and conquer whole swathes of cities, but never DOW on my own. I admit it may not be as significant as I thought - the first DOW penalty was in dark red now that I remember - and I have yet to accept requests to DOW because I don't want to take a risk, however due to my peacable nature I did get plenty of such requests nonetheless.

 

[PhilBowles]

This is the thing I'm having in GAK. I can't unilaterally DOW people, not even once, or else I will get the warmonger diplo penalty. I can defend, even strike back and conquer whole swathes of cities, but never DOW on my own. I admit it may not be as significant as I thought - the first DOW penalty was in dark red now that I remember - and I have yet to accept requests to DOW because I don't want to take a risk, however due to my peacable nature I did get plenty of such requests nonetheless.

Supposedly the warmonger penalty now expires, though I haven't noticed that; you tend not to get it with friends (I never had it with Genghis), but that was the case in vanilla as well, and as soon as someone stops being your friend they'll show the penalty. It does seem easier to obtain, and there's less variety in whether or not a civ will apply it to you - if you have a DoF it won't, if you don't it will, and regardless of who that civ is. But then I get the sense that 'personality' differences between civs in what they do and don't count as modifiers are a lot less apparent post-G&K than they were in vanilla, which is unfortunate.

 

[Number9]

Warmonger does decay. I believe someone posted on here reading the XML. The decay is 5 but warmonger status is 1000. So it will take a long time but it will decay over time.

 

[Prophet Skeram]

I think I've found DoFs harder to get :S At least the diplomacy has definitely become more reasonable. I often end up in blocs of 3-4 civs. Any aggressive Civ rapidly gets dogpiled in my games.

Monty always gets dogpiled in my games - and always wiped out completely, usually by other AI civs alone, that's how much they dislike his backstabbing and warmongering ways.

 

[Number9]

To be precise

WOOHOO! Found the settings! In GlobalDiplomacyAIDefines.xml...

Apparently there IS a decay on warmonger according to this:

Spoiler :

<Row Name="WARMONGER_THREAT_PER_TURN_DECAY">
<Value>-5</Value>
</Row>

However, since the base value of conquering a minor civ is as follows:

Spoiler :

<Row Name="WARMONGER_THREAT_MINOR_CONQUERED_WEIGHT">
<Value>1000</Value>
</Row>

Also found values for breaking promises and the like, so it appears no modifier is intended to be permanent (even if it seems so during the standard course of the game because of how slowly they decay).

It indeed takes several hundred turns to decay (not to mention the values for declaring war and the like... so, assuming OpinionDurationPercent under GameSpeeds.xml inversely adjusts the decay, it should be possible to tweak the duration of warmonger title to fit your style. I'll play around with it and see how it goes (assuming all these flags are working as intended, which I shall soon discover!)

Still, the fact alone that it is intended to decay (however slowly) gives me much hope!

 

[Peacemongerer]

Warmonger does decay. I believe someone posted on here reading the XML. The decay is 5 but warmonger status is 1000. So it will take a long time but it will decay over time.

That's REALLY good to know. I shall be fiddling with this.