Unconquered Sun
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No. VirusMonster's comments are spot on marathon SP game. Quick MP game is the total opposite.
Jaguar vs. Gallic Warrior vs. Praetorian -> How to fix the Jaguar?
- Thread starter VirusMonster
- Start date
No. VirusMonster's comments are spot on marathon SP game. Quick MP game is the total opposite.
I also don't believe that a 6 strength Jag would create that many problems in SP, but definitely would create problems in MP. The ability to reliably whip out Jag reinforcements from newly conquered cities is a big deal.
They're not that terrible in SP anyways. Monte's Aggressive trait puts them up at +10% strength. With the right info, Cover or Shock could be taken with tactical considerations. The lower cost means an extra Jag at the site compared to normal Swordsmen. This can translate to a city being taken with one less defender (since you attack earlier) or a success where it would otherwise fail.
A normal Swordsman with a non-Aggressive Civ can be used to attack cities. I don't see why an Aggressive Jag would be any the less inferior for the purpose. Lower cost and non-Iron hookup translates to faster rushes and the Aggressive makes up the strength penalty.
Admittedly, at higher levels this would be significantly less valuable. Then again, at Immortal level, you occasionally completely skip over UU's to begin with, particularly awkwardly placed ones. If you're ready to completely NOT use a Civ's UU, I don't see where the Jag's limited usefulness is all that detrimental compared to other UUs like the Ballista Elephant, the Landsknecht, and the Cataphract.
They're not that terrible in SP anyways. Monte's Aggressive trait puts them up at +10% strength. With the right info, Cover or Shock could be taken with tactical considerations. The lower cost means an extra Jag at the site compared to normal Swordsmen. This can translate to a city being taken with one less defender (since you attack earlier) or a success where it would otherwise fail.
A normal Swordsman with a non-Aggressive Civ can be used to attack cities. I don't see why an Aggressive Jag would be any the less inferior for the purpose. Lower cost and non-Iron hookup translates to faster rushes and the Aggressive makes up the strength penalty.
Admittedly, at higher levels this would be significantly less valuable. Then again, at Immortal level, you occasionally completely skip over UU's to begin with, particularly awkwardly placed ones. If you're ready to completely NOT use a Civ's UU, I don't see where the Jag's limited usefulness is all that detrimental compared to other UUs like the Ballista Elephant, the Landsknecht, and the Cataphract.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
A very good and thourough article, however....
a few comments
1) Prats: The most overpowered UU in the game. Unfair to bring them into any conversation. I am not complaining, some UU has to be the best and because of history Rome definitely should be.
2) Gallics: An odd unit especially with a similar ability to the UB. To me one of the worse and least useful, although building a swordsman with copper seams OK.
3) Jags:
I think they are fine as they are. They start with 2 free promotions at the expense of one strength. They also require no resources. With a barracks and either theocracy, vassalage, or a settled GG you can build them out of the gate with woodsman III, something not possible with any other civilization. If you need an example of their uses, my RPC MONTY game certainly showed it where early Jag's with that +10% city raider and free woodsman crippled nearby Ragnar very early leading to his downfall.
Also I think MONTY is one of the strongest of the war-mongers early on (Pre middle ages). He has a resorucesless UU, starts with mysticism and is spiritual so he can found an early religion and swap to slavery without anarchy, can build a fast temple to run a priest and get an early shrine to fund any early warfare. Once established, he should be able to roll over anyone. Also take into account his cheap UB, once he get CoL and slave alters built he is one of the best SE leaders that has no Philosophical trait (perhaps second to Rome because of the UB). Build farms, run specialists, slave for building and troops, and just go conquer yourself an empire.
MONTY is all about fast, early warring. If he is isolated or tries to build a little early your not playing him right.
To me Monty is the best war monger after Ghengis Khan.
a few comments
1) Prats: The most overpowered UU in the game. Unfair to bring them into any conversation. I am not complaining, some UU has to be the best and because of history Rome definitely should be.
2) Gallics: An odd unit especially with a similar ability to the UB. To me one of the worse and least useful, although building a swordsman with copper seams OK.
3) Jags:
I think they are fine as they are. They start with 2 free promotions at the expense of one strength. They also require no resources. With a barracks and either theocracy, vassalage, or a settled GG you can build them out of the gate with woodsman III, something not possible with any other civilization. If you need an example of their uses, my RPC MONTY game certainly showed it where early Jag's with that +10% city raider and free woodsman crippled nearby Ragnar very early leading to his downfall.
Also I think MONTY is one of the strongest of the war-mongers early on (Pre middle ages). He has a resorucesless UU, starts with mysticism and is spiritual so he can found an early religion and swap to slavery without anarchy, can build a fast temple to run a priest and get an early shrine to fund any early warfare. Once established, he should be able to roll over anyone. Also take into account his cheap UB, once he get CoL and slave alters built he is one of the best SE leaders that has no Philosophical trait (perhaps second to Rome because of the UB). Build farms, run specialists, slave for building and troops, and just go conquer yourself an empire.
MONTY is all about fast, early warring. If he is isolated or tries to build a little early your not playing him right.
To me Monty is the best war monger after Ghengis Khan.
Well said madscientist, I'm in complete agreement 
The only important factoid you missed is they are 35 hammers versus 40 for a normal swordsman. That with the other things you mentioned makes them balanced.
To anyone who thinks the jaguar's strength should be increased to 6, I ask what hammer cost you think that is worth? Surely you would not want all the current abilities AND 6 strength, so what abilities would you give up or what should the cost be?
The only important factoid you missed is they are 35 hammers versus 40 for a normal swordsman. That with the other things you mentioned makes them balanced.To anyone who thinks the jaguar's strength should be increased to 6, I ask what hammer cost you think that is worth? Surely you would not want all the current abilities AND 6 strength, so what abilities would you give up or what should the cost be?
I think Jags should be improved by giving them the ability they had in civ 3 (I think it was them .. maybe another unit) to enslave defeated enemy units - for example 30% chance when defending and 50% when attacking. What do you think? Basically, the defeated units has a chance to become yours.
Guardian_PL
Emperor
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Like OP stated in his long post hammer difference is no difference. I'd gladly have them at, say, 42-45
even, as long as they'd have 6
Prets we won't discuss, there's no point.
Gallic with Charismatic leader can easily get Guerilla III and 50% withdrawal is big (joined with 6 base power).
And as for stacks of Jags outside my cities... Come ooon! In MP surely forests are chopped near the capital/large cities, and few shock axes can ensure safety. Most likely one can lose one-two border cities, which can be reconquered easily.
Only issue is with overpowering AI Montezuma, but it can be fixed by changing his personality template. I mean, Augustus AI has Praets but he is not as terrifying as Monty can be. Also, if Aztecs will conquer one or even two of his neighbours... Well, that means more fun later in game, when there's no Jags anymore, and we can have our own army to play.
Besides, in my games, whenever I'm close to Monty he's the first to kill on my list. 95% of cases xPPPPP
even, as long as they'd have 6Prets we won't discuss, there's no point.
Gallic with Charismatic leader can easily get Guerilla III and 50% withdrawal is big (joined with 6 base power).
And as for stacks of Jags outside my cities... Come ooon! In MP surely forests are chopped near the capital/large cities, and few shock axes can ensure safety. Most likely one can lose one-two border cities, which can be reconquered easily.
Only issue is with overpowering AI Montezuma, but it can be fixed by changing his personality template. I mean, Augustus AI has Praets but he is not as terrifying as Monty can be. Also, if Aztecs will conquer one or even two of his neighbours... Well, that means more fun later in game, when there's no Jags anymore, and we can have our own army to play.
Besides, in my games, whenever I'm close to Monty he's the first to kill on my list. 95% of cases xPPPPP
The OP's hammer comparison is way off-kilter. Speed is the name of the game. It's unfair to compare one Woodsman 2 Combat Jag with one City Raider 1 Swordsman because the Swordsman will take longer to produce and will take longer to get to the target city.
Worst case scenario, you use Monte and never see a Forest or Jungle the whole game. Completely unlikely, but let's bear with it. You can tool an early production city to have 9-18- production - 1 Jag every other turn or one every 4 turns. A Swordsman would take 3 turns or 5 turns. In assmebling your army, that's as much as a two or three turn delay in attacking, and we all know what the AI will do with those turns.
Worst case scenario, you use Monte and never see a Forest or Jungle the whole game. Completely unlikely, but let's bear with it. You can tool an early production city to have 9-18- production - 1 Jag every other turn or one every 4 turns. A Swordsman would take 3 turns or 5 turns. In assmebling your army, that's as much as a two or three turn delay in attacking, and we all know what the AI will do with those turns.
Gliese 581
Your average civ junkie
The enslavement of civ3 was imo totally overpowered. The Mayan UU had this ability, along with the two best traits in that game. 
I think the woodsman promotion is good for flavor although it doesn't stop the Jaguar from being one of the weakest UUs for SP in my eyes.
Base strength 6 along with reverting hammer cost back to 40 and requiring copper to build might be fair..
I think the woodsman promotion is good for flavor although it doesn't stop the Jaguar from being one of the weakest UUs for SP in my eyes.
Base strength 6 along with reverting hammer cost back to 40 and requiring copper to build might be fair..
arbarbonif
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What about adding +25% attack FROM forests to Woodsman III? Can make them effective attacking cities (a little better than a non-CR sword), if there are woods next to them. But also gives players a defense (clear cutting) and requires a commitment to their unique point. Also make the rush interesting in jungle environs, since it is harder to clear before the hordes arrive.
Guardian_PL
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@Roxlimn
Whip, whip, whip. With 30/44/whatever hammers from one pop, 5 hammers doesn't make that much of a difference, whereas 5 strength vs 6 does.
Obviously, my opinion only.
And also, VirusMonster gave numbers of units one can build in the same time. I'd really prefer 12 Swords (not to mention Gallic Warriors) than 14 Jags
Whip, whip, whip. With 30/44/whatever hammers from one pop, 5 hammers doesn't make that much of a difference, whereas 5 strength vs 6 does.
Obviously, my opinion only.
And also, VirusMonster gave numbers of units one can build in the same time. I'd really prefer 12 Swords (not to mention Gallic Warriors) than 14 Jags
I agree that the Jaguar is a weak unit. A fun unit, but weak. Since everyone's throwing out suggestions, here's mine: Str 6, -10% vs. cities. It gives them a +20% strength, but a net -20% vs. cities, which is a slight improvement in taking on cities, but makes them a true terror on the field. On open ground, they're no better than any other Aggressive swords. Perhaps, as fast, resourceless units, a -15% city attack would be better, for a net -25%.
As it is, even with Combat 1, Woodsman 2, they aren't as hard to dislodge from forests as Praets are (10.5 vs 12, I believe). With this change, they have a slight advantage (12.6 vs 12). Of course, that is against an unpromoted Praetorian; with Combat 1, the Praet goes up to 12.8, but at least it's close with defenses of 13.5 and 13.6. Jags should be the toughest swordsmen in the forests.
As it is, even with Combat 1, Woodsman 2, they aren't as hard to dislodge from forests as Praets are (10.5 vs 12, I believe). With this change, they have a slight advantage (12.6 vs 12). Of course, that is against an unpromoted Praetorian; with Combat 1, the Praet goes up to 12.8, but at least it's close with defenses of 13.5 and 13.6. Jags should be the toughest swordsmen in the forests.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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One way to improve it might be to Increase its difference from an ordinary swordsman, ie give it cost 30 instead of 35. (same as prats might be better at cost 50)
qwertz
Prince
The jags are a bit weak, but they fit nice with the UB and Monty's traits making the Aztecs a decent civiliztion. Increasing their strenght and cost and making them require copper or iron would just make them boring and really unique. If you really want to boost them I would just make them cheaper to balance out their weakness.
madscientist
RPC Supergenius
The point I try to make about Jag is that they are one of the most versatile units, and retain the free promotion upon promotion (huh?).
futurehermit
Deity
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Frankly, I don't care about my offensive units having a defensive bonus/promotion. If I think that moving quickly through terrain will help me minimize the # of troops the AI will build then, yes, I will give my troops woodsman 2. However, that is only if I am certain I can overwhelm the AI. Otherwise, I routinely give them city raider 1 because otherwise they are pretty marginal at taking cities imo.
Martin79
Warlord
Making it 6 strength like the Gallic warrior would be the simplest solution.
Sort of off topic but still. Because of the Celtic UB all their units start with guerilla I meaning that there is absolutely no benefit that the Gallic warior has over a normal swordsman (if a dun is present) or anyother unit for that matter
7 strength, an innate withdrawl chance or a lower production/maintenence cost would be more effective.
Of course if it were up to me the gallic warrior would replace... the warrior that and guerilla I would be decent
Jaguars are fine as they are, exept they act as stack defenders instead of city attackers, and can be very effective in that area.
forest defense: 50%
Woodsman I 20%
Woodsman II 30%
Combat I 10%
110% meaning that a jaguar would have 11 strength (135% if on a hill aswell 13.5 strength .) this for a unit with a base strength of 5 pretty good! not a city raider but that's not what there for, with Woodsman III they get the ability to heal the stack they defend and give them 2 first trikes to increase ther defensive strength
They also make ideal fog busters
Forested hill with woodman 1, 2 combat I + fortify and 20% barb bonus = 18 strength strong enough to beat barb cavalry!!!!!
7 strength, an innate withdrawl chance or a lower production/maintenence cost would be more effective.
Of course if it were up to me the gallic warrior would replace... the warrior that and guerilla I would be decent
Jaguars are fine as they are, exept they act as stack defenders instead of city attackers, and can be very effective in that area.
forest defense: 50%
Woodsman I 20%
Woodsman II 30%
Combat I 10%
110% meaning that a jaguar would have 11 strength (135% if on a hill aswell 13.5 strength .) this for a unit with a base strength of 5 pretty good! not a city raider but that's not what there for, with Woodsman III they get the ability to heal the stack they defend and give them 2 first trikes to increase ther defensive strength
They also make ideal fog busters
Forested hill with woodman 1, 2 combat I + fortify and 20% barb bonus = 18 strength strong enough to beat barb cavalry!!!!!
I think there needs to be a distinction made between MP and SP. The reason why people have a tough time with the jaguar unit is that you have to realize that Firaxis has made units with Multiplayer in mind as well. The Jaguar is one of the best units in MP, but sucks in SP. Why? Well...let's face it, SP war is very basic. All you do against the computer is stack up a ton of troops, invade, take cities, done. So that's why humans will build large stacks of city taking troops, like axes and swords and go and take cities. Warfare in Civ was designed to be more complex than that, and it is, in multiplayer. In a MP game players will use ALL units at their disposal, including spears, axes, chariots, horse archers, and to a lesser extend swords. In MP it's a lot more difficult than just sending a stack to take a city. There is a lot more fighting done in the field. There is more worker stealing, pillaging, etc. This is where units like the impi and jaguar shine. If you've never played MP against the zulu or aztecs then you can't possibly know what I'm talking about. Basically, if I send jags into your territory and pillage your farms, steal your workers and pillage your metal resources, you're screwed. They are very good MP units and don't need a buff. The problem is just that players playing the AI don't want to bother with all that work, they just want to get in, take the city, and get out. If you want to see the jag at it's best, play MP.
First, Praets are not a swordsman replacement. They're a maceman replacement that's available far earlier in the game, for far fewer hammers. Against which they give up +50% vs. melee, big deal.
This has actually been my suggestion for the jaguar's base ability. 40 hammers, strength 5, resourceless, +25% when attacking from forest or jungle. It's cool and flavorful. It's not actually better than base strength 6, so resourcelessness is still their main draw, but it gives you a way to offset the lower base strength by using them appropriately, in true Aztec style (and especially early, before most of the forests get chopped).
peace,
lilnev
This has actually been my suggestion for the jaguar's base ability. 40 hammers, strength 5, resourceless, +25% when attacking from forest or jungle. It's cool and flavorful. It's not actually better than base strength 6, so resourcelessness is still their main draw, but it gives you a way to offset the lower base strength by using them appropriately, in true Aztec style (and especially early, before most of the forests get chopped).
peace,
lilnev
