Jaguar vs. Gallic Warrior vs. Praetorian -> How to fix the Jaguar?

[troytheface]

"First, Praets are not a swordsman replacement. They're a maceman replacement that's available far earlier in the game, for far fewer hammers. Against which they give up +50% vs. melee, big deal."

Preatorians are swordsman replacements. They upgrade to maces.
Your first sentence is incorrect.

 

[lilnev]

My post was rhetorical, to get you to ask yourself, "when is a swordsman not a swordsman?" Praets may have UnitClass == swordsman, but they're functional equivalent is the maceman.

 

[troytheface]

a swordsman is not a swordsman when its a preatorian. Lyrical.

 

[VirusMonster]

2) Gallics: An odd unit especially with a similar ability to the UB. To me one of the worse and least useful, although building a swordsman with copper seams OK.

Madscientist, I did not notice that the Gallic Warriors can be built both with bronze or iron. Thank you for bringing that up. They are even better than I thought. I will update the article.

Your points are reasonable, but at what difficulty setting are you playing? While you can cripple AI economy better than anything out there, if you are losing your huge hammer investment during the capture of a single city, you will not be able to advance as quickly.

And to all those who say Jaguar strength should stay at 5, because Montezuma is aggressive:

well aggressive is a trait and to be aggressive means you are not any other trait. The advantage of the trait is the free promotion, and your most needed warrior, the Jaguar has less strength than its counterpart. I don't think it is fair to Montezuma, because leaders who are not aggressive have the strength advantage over Jaguars and benefits of the other trait.

The problems is woodsman 2 and 3 are mainly defensive skills. Even if the strength is to be kept at 5, some offensive capabilities must be included into Woodsman II and III.

 

[VirusMonster]

Some good suggestions for fix are:

1) Reducing Jaguar cost to 30 hammers instead of 35.

2) Giving Woodsman III a retreat chance of around %50 just like Guerilla III. That way during city siege, there will be plently wounded Jaguars that will take advantage of the Woodsman III healing ability.

3) Increasing strength to 6. Jaguar cost can be adjusted to reflect on this strength upgrade. It could be 40 hammers again.

4) Give more than +10% CityAttack bonus during city siege, +30% city attack?!


If I figure out the way to create a poll for this article, I will add it. Any help in adding a poll is appreciated.

 

[madscientist]

Some good suggestions for fix are:

1) Reducing Jaguar cost to 30 hammers instead of 35.

2) Giving Woodsman III a retreat chance of around %50 just like Guerilla III. That way during city siege, there will be plently wounded Jaguars that will take advantage of the Woodsman III healing ability.

3) Increasing strength to 6. Jaguar cost can be adjusted to reflect on this strength upgrade. It could be 40 hammers again.

4) Give more than +10% CityAttack bonus during city siege, +30% city attack?!


If I figure out the way to create a poll for this article, I will add it. Any help in adding a poll is appreciated.

When you post there should be a link at the bottom to add a poll. I am not sure if it needs to be an origional post though. Try editing it.

The MONTY RPC game was on Monarch and limited to a strict SE.

 

[VirusMonster]

When you post there should be a link at the bottom to add a poll. I am not sure if it needs to be an origional post though. Try editing it.

The MONTY RPC game was on Monarch and limited to a strict SE.

I just read your Monty RPC game =) I am also going to read the Mongolian conquest report =) Funny game, I like your style of reporting.

But you got lucky with the special quest that upgraded your Swordsman units with CRI? I am not sure what the quest did, but it seems to have buffed your Jaguars. Can you tell what the random event did?

You also did not go for a quick city attack with Woodsman II; you massed and waited with your stack for catapults. True, you crippled Ragnar's economy, pillaged his iron and bronze and he could not do much about it, apart from waiting.

Still after sacrificing your 2 catapults, you still lost 7 Jaguars during that capital siege. Not to mention the fact you waiting a lot of turns outside cultural borders with high maintanence costs.

I don't know... I think a small boost to Jaguar city attack is needed.

 

[madscientist]

I just read your Monty RPC game =) I am also going to read the Mongolian conquest report =) Funny game, I like your style of reporting.

But you got lucky with the special quest that upgraded your Swordsman units with CRI? I am not sure what the quest did, but it seems to have buffed your Jaguars. Can you tell what the random event did?

You also did not go for a quick city attack with Woodsman II; you massed and waited with your stack for catapults. True, you crippled Ragnar's economy, pillaged his iron and bronze and he could not do much about it, apart from waiting.

Still after sacrificing your 2 catapults, you still lost 7 Jaguars during that capital siege. Not to mention the fact you waiting a lot of turns outside cultural borders with high maintanence costs.

I don't know... I think a small boost to Jaguar city attack is needed.

All good points, and I cannot remember when I got the random event, but I forgot that part. Nevertheless the quick Jag builds allowed me to cutoff Ragnars copper, something I could not have done effectively with chariots or waiting for conventional swords and axes.

STill, I think the UU is OK as it is. I understand your desire to impre it though.

 

[vicawoo]

I don't see why giving them, say, the equivalent of city raider 1 for free is less broken than giving woodsmen 2. If he has a free city raider, then you can specialize some jaguars to be much stronger at attacking cities than normal swordsmen, whereas if you force every jaguar to have woodsmen 2, you force them all to have a specialized benefit.

Example: 5 exp, let's say you have a free cr1 or equivalent: either woodsmen 1 city raider 3 or woodsmen 2 city raider 2 or woodsmen 3 cr1. If you give woodsmen 2: either woodsmen 2 city raider 2 or woodsmen 3 cr1.
At 3 exp: cr2 woodsmen 1 or cr1 woodsmen 2 for free cr.

I have a question, would we want them to be better city raiders straight up than a swordsmen? aggressive swordsmen?

 

[VirusMonster]

I don't see why giving them, say, the equivalent of city raider 1 for free is less broken than giving woodsmen 2. If he has a free city raider, then you can specialize some jaguars to be much stronger at attacking cities than normal swordsmen, whereas if you force every jaguar to have woodsmen 2, you force them all to have a specialized benefit.

Example: 5 exp, let's say you have a free cr1 or equivalent: either woodsmen 1 city raider 3 or woodsmen 2 city raider 2 or woodsmen 3 cr1. If you give woodsmen 2: either woodsmen 2 city raider 2 or woodsmen 3 cr1.
At 3 exp: cr2 woodsmen 1 or cr1 woodsmen 2 for free cr.

I have a question, would we want them to be better city raiders straight up than a swordsmen? aggressive swordsmen?

Jaguars are 5 strength and they are at least %16(im not even counting the compound effect of combat mathematics in civ4) less effective than Swordsman in capturing cities due to the reduced strength.

To increase their city attack skill will only help them to come with similar odds to Swordsman in city attacking.

 

[VirusMonster]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=6380966

 

[Indiansmoke]

Yes, fine for multiplayer, which changes a number of things of course (e.g., quechuas aren't so hot in multiplayer). But even then if someone fortified a couple jags on a forest near my capital (I would've chopped the ones RIGHT beside my capital asap) I would just leave them there until they decided to move. I don't see how it ends my game right away. If they move to pillage, I take them out. If they don't, they sit there until I can deal with them. I don't see how that ability makes them extremely powerful.

And frankly, woodsman 2 units might be able to race through wood/jungle to get to my capital, but they'll have a helluva time taking that capital relative to many other units.

Same goes with single player. Your only shot is being able to overwhelm the AI by racing your jags to the destination (which assumes a large amount of jungle/wood between you and them which is not always the case). However, you can overwhelm the AI with pretty much any unit.

The jag is better than I once thought, but nothing outstanding imo, and giving it strength 6 wouldn't make it an overpowered unit, especially not relative to some of the other UUs that are available.

Even for single player the AI is so stupid that if you put 2 jags in a forest next to a city it will loose unit after unit trying to kill them...when all you get is free promos and generals.

Also the point of choching is not actually taking the capital but making it hard for the other player or AI to develope....It will be hard to move workers unescorted and you will always need more units in city for defence...so while you are building units to escort your workers and loosing lots of turns the opponent is developing without any hassle...

 

[Guardian_PL]

Shock axe or two accompanying worker and You're laughing. And if You'll sacrifice worker to lure Jags to the open field... Well, there'll be no jags anymore.

So You won't be able to chop forest occupied by terrorist jags. In the same time, aztecs are paying a lot of money for maintenance. The more units, the more strain on the economy. War has to be swift and efficient in order to bring benefits, otherwise it's a pyrrhic victory.

 

[UncleJJ]

Workers cost 60 hammers and a jaguar costs 35 so that's not a good trade.

The jaguar is good at a harrassing sort of war rather than the city taking kind that most humans prefer. It is easy to severely stunt another civs economy and development with them. That can weaken the other civ while the aztecs continue to develop and grab the best sites and resources.

 

[futurehermit]

I agree that approach can work, but in SP it is not as powerful as simply conquering the nation outright and putting their land to use. That imo is why jags are seen as weak. Why would I want to annoy the AI when I can simply play a civ with stronger swords and take the cities outright?

Sure, in multiplayer you can do different things, but a LOT changes in MP.

 

[Indiansmoke]

I agree that approach can work, but in SP it is not as powerful as simply conquering the nation outright and putting their land to use. That imo is why jags are seen as weak. Why would I want to annoy the AI when I can simply play a civ with stronger swords and take the cities outright?

Sure, in multiplayer you can do different things, but a LOT changes in MP.

Well lots of reasons....

1. You might not afford to take more cities...so you want to keep them buzy while you develope
2. You might not get iron so have no swords with another civ
3. As I said the AI is stupid and will try to attack the jags, so you will gain experience easily
4. You might destroy their coper or iron and then use the jags to make it hard for them to recconect it
5. The Ai does not realize that jags can move 2 plots..so while it builds up defences in the city it thinks you will attack..you can change target and move fast to another less defended city

 

[Martin79]

Well lots of reasons....
3. As I said the AI is stupid and will try to attack the jags, so you will gain experience easily

My short experience with Arabian Empire shows that AI will not attack a Woodsman II in a forest. A war with jags will often look like a stalemate. You cannot take cities and the AI cannot kill your jags.

 

[madscientist]

Generally the AI will ignore Woodsman II jags in a forrest in my experience. They are good to monitor a vitak resource while you take down their cities. Jags are still better at city attack than axes.

 

[Guardian_PL]

@Uncle JJ
I've used plural. Jags. I wouldn't sacrifice worker for one Jaguar. And it's a worst case scenario anyway, I meant possibility to build roads, farms etc while I have a lurker at the threshold in nearby forest

And I also agree that perhaps in Vanilla AI would attack Woodsman II/III Jags in the forest. In BTS not. Same goes for almost any other unit, unless it has 4-6 archers in city and You have single Woodsman II warrior who just stole his worker.

 

[Gigaz]

The Jaguar Warrior is definitely the best UU for early rushs in multiplayer. When you use fastmoves the careless enemy has normally 2, rarely 3 turns between seeing your stack and loosing his capital. A stack of 4-6 Jags can reach an enemy border before turn 40 (fast speed).
Still, when you dont rush, the Jag is very strong
-woodsman 3 grants extra healing
-They can protect your stack of horsearchers if you lack iron and copper
-they can sit on enemy forests to prevent him from getting more hammers from chopping

Strengthening the Jag further would definitely be imbalanced for multiplayer.