Jason score for spaceship games

DaveMcW

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I think the 'best' dates for spaceship launch are too early, resulting in Jason lower scores for people who choose that victory condition. In COTM2 the date was 1080AD, the fastest ever in a GOTM despite the fact that there were no scientific civs and we started on a medium-size island.

Does the calculator take into consideration the 2 new techs (Miniaturization & Robotics) required to launch the spaceship in Conquests? I think the number of scientific civs should also be a factor in the calculation.
 
Dave, the classic gotms are modded so they require the same techs.
And the number of scientific civs is taken into account somwhat AFAIK.
On the other side Conquests gives a lot of advantages:

Philosophy slingshot
Super scientists
Lower corruption in totally corrupt towns

coupled with seafaring with a lot of coast available and agricultural the date has to be quite early.

That's not saying that I would like to do the tedious job of settling lots of fishing villages as think tank, but that's possible in Conquests.
 
The only mods to the tech-tree in the classic GOTM are that SS Statis Chamber has been moved from Synthetic Fibres to Robotics. As with C3C, this adds two extra techs to the spaceship victory (8 turns for Jason best-dates), however this has no bearing on the C3C vs Classic scores.

In terms of comparing the GOTM with the COTM, this is one reason why the GR are done on % of top score -> so that (for example) if the top Jason on Conquests was consistently around 12,000 and the top on Classic was consistently around 11,000, then this increment would be removed in the global rankings.

So, for conquests 'best dates', the question is whether the spaceship best-date is comparable to the other 'best dates' for C3C. I believe that the Jason calc for Conquests was adjusted to look at the revised tech-tree - I remember this being checked, so hopefully it is right.

There may be some issues with things such as number of scientific civs affecting dates, but I don't think we allow for this. If this is the case, then I'd suggest that the presence of any scientific civ should decrease the date rather than increase it.

I'm not the guru on the system (I understand the intent and a only a bit of the mechanics), so I'll let Aeson (designer) and AlanH (implimenter) comment on this!
 
Radio has been taken out in C3C as well. There was a slight flaw in implementation (4 turns for a tech) that AlanH caught when looking things over for C3C, but that was taken care of. In the "huge" tech rate game things were off as well. Other than that the best dates are as intended, but are limited in the factors they take into account.

Ideally all factors could be quantified and taken into account in a manner which accurately represents their effect on the game. Number of Scientific AI's and quality of initial landmass is outside the scope of the scoring system.

Back when the free tech was truely randomized in one of the PtW patches cracker and I discussed the change and IIRC the decision was that the number of Scientific civs was going to be kept to 1 or 2 so that the difference between 1.29f and PtW tech rates would stay closer to the same. I forgot about this decision and I don't think that it was ever conveyed to Ainwood. It is certainly a valid concern and a bit of variation could be taken out by returning to the stable number of Scientific civs.

That said, because of the modding to the rules and maps, the scoring system was reworked to be much less dependant on the best dates. Date is the more faulty side of things. Max score is relatively stable and so the scoring system is mainly a comparison of base score against the predicted "milking" curve. At 2050AD the date bonus is +0% to the score increasing linearly by turn to the best date at +15% (not sure on this, might just be 10%). So the difference of 20 turns around the best date on Spacerace (usually with around 300 turns remaining) should equate to ~1% Jason score. (assuming that base score maintains the same relation to the predicted curve during that time)

My initial goal was to get a system that would bring all the victory conditions within 5% max scoring potential from map to map (un-modded in across a single version). With the mods and various versions supported it's 5-10%, which is as good as I could have hoped for. I would like to improve the scoring system, but at this point I'm afraid adding factors would simply make it more complex and/or add further variation. For instance, if you account for the extra Scientific civs, but they end up all getting duplicate techs, the problem would only be reversed. Same thing with techs from Huts.

---------------

I still think that many of the "fast tech" (quickly to Cavalry) Domination/Conquest victories we see scoring at the top can score a bit more by building up to a Diplomatic/Spacerace victory. There have been examples of just about every victory condition hitting near 11-12k. In this thread I played SirPleb's Gold Medal GOTM19 Domination (Jason 11787) out to a Spacerace victory (Jason 12229) to help illustrate this.

Some maps will favor one victory condition or the other due to factors the scoring system isn't designed to account for, but the only consistant advantage Domination/Conquest has (at least in 10k+ games) is that it requires less playtime. That is the reason I think most of the top scores end up Domination. To get a top score with another condition you still need to get to the domination limit ASAP, but then have to do the "milking" to get to the victory condition. (It has to be this way, otherwise we'd be right back to milking, as the most time intensive victory condition, being the only way to score high.)
 
Thanks Aeson. :)

No, it wasn't conveyed to me re the scientific civs - but it does make perfect sense. Sounds like a good thing to aim for in the future to keep the scoring opportunities fair. I presume this was the reason why cracker actually changed some civ traits as well.
 
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