JFC-2: Genghis Pope

[Legendre]

I usually hate the great spy, but having Persian Korea seems to be working out for us . I don't feel like loading the game to check, but I think I saw Germany without a religion (I could be mistaken) so I have no idea what the AP hammer situation will be if this is the case.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I love great spies. There's a little luck involved (about regular spies not being caught), but it's like you're researching several techs at once, at significantly less cost to you. (I don't think we absolutely needed Divine Right, since we already have philosophy to get constitution, but having it boosts our score, and maybe we'll get luck and build the Forbidden Palace somewhere in the middle of Asia, like Ning-hsia, if we spawn a Great Engineer, will certainly drive down maintenance costs. Or are we planning for communism?) Getting optics was definitely a plus, saved us 6-7 turns at least.

Assuming we get liberalism, do not get astronomy for free tech. Most Europeans will have it already in 1550 (so it will drive our research of that tech down a lot), and getting Taj Mahal/Constitution first is much more important. We don't need galleons to found colonies yet (although colonizing Jayakarta maybe a good bet for the population), and we still haven't built enough of the exisiting buildings to require observatories.

BTW, are we going to wait for Persia to collapse before capturing Seoul?

 

[Jet]

No, the AP cannot be converted to another religion. You can always build missionaries without monasteries in Organized Religion, but I hope we won't be forced to do that.

You know, the razed holy city and low spread of Christianity may work in our favor. It may be easier to get a large number of votes in our own territory. And the +3 relations event is the best possible thing that could have happened. It almost breaks this game.

Remember that we have to own the AP. I think the chances are that Germany will only get stronger, and I suggest that we try to do it before Germany has Riflemen. But it won't be easy to build a large enough army quickly enough. It will take 10 turns just to get to the German border (30 tiles, 3/turn if we build the silk road, which we should) if we go through Russia. For comparison, 27 turns is the time it would take us to research Rifling if we started right now. And realistically, I think we'll need to do more than just take and hold Laibach. We may need to capture or raze some surrounding cities so that we have a more useful European base of operation.

Liberalism seems like a pretty good idea, although I would like to see how far along England is. Here's one alternative: research Constitution directly, build the Taj, then research military techs (Rifling or Military Tradition), and aim to get Free Religion from the Shwedgaon in Rome. The Shwedagon is the reason Germany does not have a state religion, Legendre.

About civics, the problem with both Bureaucracy and Republic is the number of cities stability penalty. It's mentioned in Harrier's Guide to Stability on the RFC Wiki, and here are the exact numbers from Stability.py:

• (5 - #cities) stability for Bureaucracy, floored at -7 (12 cities)
• 2 * (3 - # cities) stability for Republic, floored at -7 (7 cities)
• +4 stability for running Bureaucracy and Republic together

In this game I think we will probably want to be largeish, both for AP votes and so that we have enough power to get things done. I probably would have tried to stay in Vassalage all game, myself. I'm interested your reasons for changing to Bureaucracy + Slavery, Legendre (but I am not trying to berate you). Anyway, I'm not sure exactly what civics we should aim for, and it will depend on our tech path, but I think Republic + Bureaucracy will probably not be a good destination for us.

About taking Korea, I don't see much evidence that Persia will collapse on its own (except maybe the 10 million crap desert cities it founded - I've never seen so many). Do you, AnotherPacifist?

Roster:
AnotherPacifist - played
Mitchifier - up for a got it on Sunday, then 48 after the got it
Jet - on deck after Mitichifer plays

 

[Legendre]

This game is actually proving to be pretty educational since I usually play the civs with more compact goals. I hope I'm pulling my weight on my turns (no berating inferred Jet ). I see your point about the negative stability from bureaocracy - I actually didn't know that there was such a penalty built in, and it now makes sense why I'm collapsing in this mega-Japanese empire game I have going! When I'm playing Dutch/Greece or the like, I've never had a problem with that civic setup. I definitely agree with going representation + free religion. We're going to want something like Commonwealth or Vassalage, and Free Market until Environmentalism (or potentially other), so I am hoping that we can fit in a bureaucracy swap out and keep it as 1 turn anarchy somewhere in there. Well, if it doesn't work out I've cost us 1 turn of anarchy (I apologize!) but hey my good luck mojo got us some good events

 

[Úmarth]

Any thoughts on invading Germany then? Should we start building up our forces now given the distance involved?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Any thoughts on invading Germany then? Should we start building up our forces now given the distance involved?

Don't worry about bureaucracy, I think it's not optimal (since our capital has neither a shrine nor the most productive), but we'll switch to free speech with emancipation, or nationhood together with communism when we are ready to go to war. Our stability is great right now, so hopefully that will sustain a large empire.

Going to war isn't a great idea right now (I would prefer when we at least have riflemen and cavalry (probably 1600). We need some roads built between China and Ning-hsia and maybe befriend Russia to help our endeavor (if Catherine asks us we will do so).

BTW, I think democracy should be researched early (the statue of liberty for a large empire is like an extra 10% research, and free engineer in small cities).

Representation is almost essential to get science cranking. Its instability when you have plenty of cities can be balanced by a great economy. That's why I'm not so happy about all those farms in China...we desperately need some cottages.

Seeing that Seoul is so unhappy, maybe we can induce some instability by sending our spies repeatedly to cause rebellion or change civics?

 

[Úmarth]

Remember we have to raze 4 more cities for our golden age, can't be too pacifistic.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Remember we have to raze 4 more cities for our golden age, can't be too pacifistic.

Ideally we should time the Taj Mahal and razing 4 more cities to more than double our GA length. I think Japan is a good target (close enough and have small cities to raze).

 

[Jet]

True, there is an argument for attacking with Rifles instead of earlier units. They don't obsolete as quickly, and it would give us more time to grow our core economy. But can we grow faster than Germany? I don't know. Also, the upgrade from Muskets to Rifles is fairly cheap, so if we marched and took the first city while researching Rifling, the Muskets could be upgraded after the first capture. So I would support either time frame. Either way, I suggest we approach the buildup with a sense of urgency. For example, at least Beijing, with the Colosseum, can be pumping units right away, and its tiles improved for production. Either Keshiks, or if we want to wait, Trebs/Cannons.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Let's at least have gunpowder stolen from Persia first (so maybe 7 moves later).

The reason Persia is able to build and keep all those terrible cities is because they have the great wall. (the 3rd option on the Best Defense event was grayed out because we don't have the great wall, it would have given it +25 spy points)

 

[Legendre]

Without leaving any city ungarrisoned, we have 3 catapults and 4 keshiks currently to work with. I say start them toward Ning-Hsia ASAP. By them time the catapults get there we should have gunpowder, can upgrade them to cannons, and just start them off toward Germany. 3 cannons isn't alot so if we're going to act now we should start on 1-2 trebs.

I kind of like the idea of attacking with keshiks and cannons now. Laibach was only garrisoned by bowmen last time we checked so if we can get there before Rifling it could probably work with a little luck.

Greece is also still unstable, if they collapse their territory could be a good staging point for our European adventures. Also it would give Laibach more room to work with and make it worthwhile to put a summer palace there.

Finally, we're going to need some gold for upgrades and should start selling our map. I was messing around with the save and got up to 500g and pretty much everyone else's of maps easily.

 

[Legendre]

Economically, I know I changed us to slavery (but I have this compulsion to crack the whip - sorry!), so our tile improvements are going slower but does it sound good to everyone to start converting all grasslands in China to cottages and keep plains as farms? We might need a few more workers.

 

[Úmarth]

I'm with Legendre as far as invading Europe is concerned.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Personally I would love to get tanks first (makes my German games so much easier), but the vote's against me.

It's too bad we're not starting in the 600 AD load, since the Silk Road is already built with that.

I think if you guys are really up for war, Greece should be the first target--much more defensible, as opposed to Laibach which is out in the middle and tough to defend if Russia decides to declare war on us.

Currently Greece is at war with Russia, so we may gain some bonus points with Russia if we are also.

Plus we should take out the most advanced civ, and since they're already unstable, they'll collapse with just 1 city lost...maybe we'll still get liberalism despite ourselves.

 

[Legendre]

I'm still in favor of beelining liberalism, getting constitution for free and stealing gunpowder as was mentioned before. If not, what are we going for?

 

[Úmarth]

Sounds like a plan Pacifist.

 

[Mitchifer]

Hey y'all, I just got back, so this is my "got it".

Should be able to play tonight, and a report will be soon to follow.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Just so you guys know, I'm going on vacation on 5/2 (going to Poland), so I may have to give my spot up until 1 week later...unless I can play a turn between now and then.

 

[Legendre]

Mitchifier, are you still in this?

 

[Jet]

Looks like we better skip Mitchifier this round. AnotherPacifist, swap with me if you want (which means you're up), let us know if not.

Roster:

AnotherPacifist - up, swapped with Jet
Umarth - on deck
Legendre
Jet - swapped with AnotherPacifist
Mitchifier
Jet - back to normal
Umarth
etc