June Patch - Impact on Ancient Duel

[KiffeLesBiffles]

To begin the study of new patch impact on multi, I suggest to look at the more "basic" exercice : the quick ancient start duel.

My observations are :

-the SP path liberty->collective power->republic is stronger than ever with the buff of republic.

-The all-in production rush technic still works (4-5 city on hills, work hills, builds only troops)

-The iroquois are now one of the best for this exercice because mowaks don't need iron :
You can upgrade warriors early, you gain up to 5 turns
You have no risk of iron pillaging
You can continue non-stop troops building without any limitation.

-The LS rush is almost dead with the new tech tree, the GP remove from meritocracy and the nerf to their strenght (from 18 to 16).


My questions are :

-Is it possible now to play defence with archer become stronger and cheaper ? Moreover, the crossbow are really strong now and can, imo, stop LS easily.

-Roman seems to be stronger with Legion at the same price than sword. Are Roman worth playing now ? Other civs become stronger ?

-What do you thing of the honor SP tree for duel ?

-After iron, What can be your next tech beeline in duel ? Indeed, With LS rush difficult now, we can imagine beelining another units (catapults, crossbow, other ?)

 

[Tabarnak]

I don't have much experience in duel matches, but i can bring some toughts.

-Archers are cheaper and combined with Oligarchy i think you can set a nice defence(maybe with a wall, bringing more power to city)

-Map? If you can get a little choke point maybe you can turtle and build more things to set up a better war machine? Not relevant to the changes tho.

-Early offence : Iron(cheaper) can be teched right of the bat without much consequences. Maybe get free worker before settler from Liberty to be sure to have iron with 2nd city and get more warriors meanwhile. Maybe focus on gold tiles first to get maximum upgrade.

-Iroquois and Rome are strong. France for culture.

-Honor is nice but if you play with no barbs this may be weaker than Liberty or Tradition early on. A mix of policies better than full a whole tree?

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

My previous technics
Pre-patch, my personnal technic for duel was :

- Tech : I go directly for steel
- Social policy : Liberty->collective power->republic->citizenship->meritocracy (I don't often reach it)
- Construction : Monument->Worker->Warriors(X2)->Setters(as soon as i collective power) (x 3 or 4)->only troops.

I build settlers until I reach -5/-6 hapinness. I settle my cities on hill tiles which have another hill adjacent, ideally near rivers as well.

For a 1 pop city :
2 prod from city tiles+1 prod from republic+2 for hill tiles + 1 if you have a mine (+1 eventually with iron) = 6 prod per city = 1 sword every 8 turns.

For the capital :
4 pop and 16 prod = 1 sword every 4 turns.

It is the best technics imo : that is the way to have the strongest army. Some really good players I know research other tech before iron such as Animals or writing.

New technics for duels ?

I play a training duel yesterday, I had India vs China. Because I can't built multiple city, I try to play defence with 1 city. My path was :

Tech : wheel for elephants->writing->Iron->machinery(for crossbow)
SP : I complete the traditon tree.
My army : 50% front line units, 50% ranged units (elephant, crossbow)

As my opponent choose, the liberty technic, the game looked like attack(him) vs defence (me)

First battle : with my elephants and my city with oligarchy, I managed to defend againts 4 Swords and 2 lancers. With oligarchy I was able to hit him really hard. But I also had losses

Second Battle : My crossbows, and at the end my knights, beat his Long Swords. I also had losses. But he slowed down my economy pillaging my lands. We did not finish the game, But I think it was a draw game.

To conclude, I think for duel :
Tradition = defence
Liberty = offence
Honnor = ? (is someone already tested it ?)

Problem : you have to choose between liberty and tradition at the very begining when you have no information on maps, on the opponent and ressources...

 

[MasterMishi]

Love the replay for post game analysis.

My first duel yesterday:

I was china vs germany

Trad first Lib rex to 4 cities (my free settler was barb spawn killed, turned into worker)
Monument first in cities then spam spears/ archers
Trad first, Lib settler, worker, Took honour (barbs on), trad , piety (happiness)
Tech iron, then lux, steel

clickfest front both us using ranged with sword or spear fortified in rough terrain.
Germany (3 cities not as rapid) built buildings where as i continued to spam units.
We both had clickfest losses. My superior reinforcments pushed him back (3 cats 3 swords 3 archers and spear or 2 with archers spears queued. General a few turns before him.
Lower city strength meant archers softened 3rd city up and melee took it t70ish. 2nd general burnt golden age.
About to hit longs mid t80s he quit.

Conclusion:
Same as before:

Iron first
more cities quicker means more production and units.
You need a size 4 or 5 cap first though improved.
Policys situational. Monuments keep them coming and they can really help.

New strategy:
Archers vs cities
Build your cap up first a bit more with workers and production buildings

MM

 

[Tabarnak]

A monarchy beeline can be interesting to bring more hammers. No need to build monuments, you can start with a warrior instead for other cities(waiting for iron). Stay with 3 cities for 3-4 luxs then growth them to pop 4-6 and maximise gold if possible to continue to build cheap warriors upgraded later. A pop 6 capital brings 3 more and per turn. In fact at pop 5 capital brings already 3 .

If you can work 1 or 2 extra mine(granary?) i think you can well survive with 3 cities instead of 4 or 5. Since Capital will not build monuments and 1 or 2 less cities, the 2 hard builded ones can be produced slowly by working gold tiles for a mega upgrade for turn 35-40. With a 6 iron tile, you need : 55*6= 330. I found myself reaching this amount several times when i start with a river and some calendar luxs around before turn 40.

Cities can produce swordman each 4-6 turns.

With better science you can reach Steel faster. Oligarchy is suddenly very close if needed.

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

A monarchy beeline can be interesting to bring more hammers.

You try to adapt your Maximize production strategy here. It was my pre-patch base strat as well for FFA. But, imo, for Duel, the timing is different : you don't have enough time to execute it before liberty rush production strategy beat you.

Stay with 3 cities for 3-4 luxs then growth them to pop 4-6 and maximise gold if possible to continue to build cheap warriors upgraded later. A pop 6 capital brings 3 more and per turn. In fact at pop 5 capital brings already 3 .

Tradtion SP

The problem is you need everything to do that :

-Production : for settlers, warriors, workers (you need it to growth).
-Gold : to upgrade your warriors.
-food : for growth.

And, as you know, it is not possible to have the three at the beginning. I agree Traditon is nice : It is the way for long term victory or isolate start (east vs west, archipelageo...). But not optimal for duel.
But I am wordering if pure defense tradition strat with oligarchy, archer and wall is viable and can stop the non-stop swordman flow coming from a liberty strat.

Liberty SP

You only need production, and you are help by :

- Free settler and +50% for settler production -> city spam -> more production
- Republic +1 prod per city.

it is short term, but enough for duel.

Iron first
more cities quicker means more production and units.
You need a size 4 or 5 cap first though improved.
Policys situational. Monuments keep them coming and they can really help.

New strategy:
Archers vs cities
Build your cap up first a bit more with workers and production buildings

MM

At the moment, I dont build momument in other cities but I think it is a good idea : I will test it.
Are not you too slow for building other cities ? Growth to 5 for your cap is very time consuming.

 

[MasterMishi]

4player pang, i randomed france and ended up in duel situation with rome.

I tested trad policy, fully unlocked very quick. 3 city rex.
rome went honour and i defended their warrior rush.
upgraded and took antium.
they came straight back with legions, with honour bonus and gg.
My 4 swords and a cat were not enough to defend them as terrain stopped me from getting over to the legions fast. They took orleans in click race.
Legions with honour bonus were so strong to my swords it was like they were warriors.
I was well ahead on food and hammers at the time and had reinforcements coming but had to go.
gg

MM

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

I would like to challenge both of you MM and Tabarnak on this exercice to confront our point of view on the subject.

 

[tommynt]

Killing 95% of guys is still very easy in <50 turns

its all about the small things like city placement and unit usuage not about the "strategies" (they are obvious anyway)

 

[MasterMishi]

its 50/50 strat/ useage, we are discussing the strat here

had ghandi last duel:

scout worker monument 3 eles 2 spears

honour, gg, 10%

wheel, iron, lux

farmed and chopped, mined

he built war, settler at size 2, i suicide scout stole it,

he built archer, settled a citidal on the wrong side

i took the city

MM

 

[tommynt]

should play some1 at least semidecent not some1 worse then ai - citadel ...

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

should play some1 at least semidecent not some1 worse then ai - citadel ...

Like the guys you play with in CIV league, Tommynt ? I never see you beat a top 10 player !

its all about the small things like city placement and unit usuage not about the "strategies" (they are obvious anyway)

It is exactly the contrary : units usuage are obvious, strats are not. Every one knows how to use sword !

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

Liberty production rush

 

[tommynt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommynt
should play some1 at least semidecent not some1 worse then ai - citadel ...

Like the guys you play with in CIV league, Tommynt ? I never see you beat a top 10 player !


Quote:
its all about the small things like city placement and unit usuage not about the "strategies" (they are obvious anyway)

It is exactly the contrary : units usuage are obvious, strats are not. Every one knows how to use sword !

WoW, now thats some self ownage, as you been one of the "kill below 50 turn" guys

 

[tommynt]

OK, now the "not so obvious" - very obvious best strat for anc duel and pretty much also FFA (FFA with difference to throw in 1 wonder or 2 in cap and more focus on happy/growth instead of production

BO Cap:
Monument (only scout/warri before if u want go worker/settler hunting)
Worker
Scout
Settler
Settler
Settler
Settler
Sword/Wonder

SP:
Lib
Free Settler
Shields (or Worker depending if u REALLY need the worker)
Fill Rest or go for GG in Honor tree

BO rest of Cities:
Monument (dont have to be 1. but sometime)
Warrior
other units after gold is gone

is that a HARD to guess strategy?
pretty much not, but its only beatable by some1 doing the same but better - therefore:

Strat is obvious - execution is skill

 

[KiffeLesBiffles]

WoW, now thats some self ownage, as you been one of the "kill below 50 turn" guys

You been one of the "kill below 50 turn" guys, as well !

OK, now the "not so obvious" - very obvious best strat for anc duel and pretty much also FFA (FFA with difference to throw in 1 wonder or 2 in cap and more focus on happy/growth instead of production

BO Cap:
Monument (only scout/warri before if u want go worker/settler hunting)
Worker
Scout
Settler
Settler
Settler
Settler
Sword/Wonder

SP:
Lib
Free Settler
Shields (or Worker depending if u REALLY need the worker)
Fill Rest or go for GG in Honor tree

BO rest of Cities:
Monument (dont have to be 1. but sometime)
Warrior
other units after gold is gone

is that a HARD to guess strategy?
pretty much not, but its only beatable by some1 doing the same but better - therefore:

Strat is obvious - execution is skill

That's a constructive post !

Indeed, this is the optimal Strategy of the previous Patch . But the question was : Does the new patch change something ? Can you tell us what do you think tommynt ? I am sure it will be very interresting !

 

[tommynt]

nothing has changed, this is the best "strat" now and then.
At least vs guys who are easy beats (every1 apart maybe 1 or 2 guys).

Vs really good ones I might adjust a little - ie preparing for longer game

btw before last patch I think a superfast Longsword swing d have beaten above "strat" but no1 I played was good enough to pull it off.
Fewer cities meant a way faster gs for steel and a bigger cap with GA at some point a lot of gold for upgrading.
All u d have to do is defend a 2nd or 3rd city

In general the patch is pretty sad fpr mp:
before there had been really more options and gameplays - with the huge nerf to trad tree options are very limited now and liberty is THE tree for any age.
Also some wonders are really op now

 

[MasterMishi]

I got beaten by kiffles, i was trying the lib settler spam sword upgrade.
He ghandi ele rushed me - very similar to my ghandi rush strat posted earlier....
I was japan. Only 2 iron and it was 5 turns from my cap plus had to buy a tile to get it.
I aborted the settler spam after 3 city total and built spears, but lost the 2nd city in a clickfest.
T30ish
2 eles 2 war vs war and spear
Then he pillaged my iron with an ele that went to my back door and stumbled across my 2 iron, quite lucky.
If he hadnt got my iron i could have defended the cap. But he had swords T40ish. My 2 swords and 2 spear were not enough vs his 3 swords 3 eles.
so i think the settler spam is still vulnerable to a 1 city unit spam, city defence is lower, esp with mounted range, eles are great, maybe war chariots would also work, even archers if good terrain and an extra melee.
Of course i should have expected it, i took a risk with minimal units, delayed iron cost me and my 2nd city was towards delhi (cerro de potosi +10 gold).

 

[MasterMishi]

tommynt, i disagree about longs rush beating lib sword rush
Turn 52-60 4 longs are strong, but usually the lib rusher had 4 swords and some spears turn 35-45. So terrain and location depending, the steel rusher was very vulnerable to an iron pillage or
2nd city blitz.


Another strat for early war:
Scout, worker, warriors, spears, upgrades, cats

Lib, free settler,+ hammers

Iron, lux, masonry if stone, maths

Stay 2 city for happiness and get golden age for superior production and unit spam, cats for the win.

This is very strong with persia. Their Golden age bonus is super strong plus immortals

MM

 

[tommynt]

I dont know about ranged units - they got buffed ... but then they are very vurnable to double moves and forest terrain - also horses are easy to get aswell and d rape them in a stalement.

Never got beaten by a rush - just open eys and see what other is doing ... also the iron hills are sometimes "obvious" with some experience