Jutland/ Skagerrak, 31.05.- 01.06.1916

1. Well after Jutland several German ships were damaged and small flaws were corrected indeed. However this is normal. But the biggest changes already happened after the Doggerbank battle.

2. + 3. I only wanted to say that the status quo ante was preserved and that's why the battle was a strategic draw. The German advantages are too small to justify it as German strategic victory, even a partial one. I compared the outcome of the battle on the strategic level with a football game ending 0:0, but one side missed the goal more than the other side.

4. A new battle, new chances, new cards. Indeed we can't know the ending of such a battle. And although the British had with HMS Renown and HMS Repulse two very good battlecruiser coming, the use of instabile Cordite was still a big danger for the ships. Despite design corrections. That's why I have doubts in the effectiveness of the British battlecruiser.

Adler
 
BTW, for those who are unfamiliar with battlecruisers, here's a short summary:

Admiral Sir John Fisher, 1st Sea Lord from 1904 to 1910, had a strange delusion that speed and armament were the two most desirable attributes of a warship with protection coming in a distant third. Therefore, he had battlecruisers designed and built. These ships were the same size as battleships, carried a battleship's guns, and were very fast. The speed was achieved by having the ships lightly armored. The basic idea was "anything they couldn't outfight they could outrun, anything they couldn't outrun they could outfight."

Battlecruisers were used by both the British and Germans in WWI as scouts. They were to make contact with the enemy and draw the enemy into range of the battleships. Unfortunately, at Jutland both the British battlecruiser commander, Beatty, and his German counterpart, Hipper, were aggressive types, unable to stay out of range of the other side's heavy ships. Of the five large ships lost at Jutland, four were battlecruisers (three British and one German). HMS Queen Mary was hit by one 11" (280mm) shell, which penetrated into a shell handling room, causing a flash fire which blew up a magazine. One British battleship, HMS Warspite, with almost twice the armor of Queen Mary, was hit 12 times and survived to fight in WW2.
 
Adler17 said:
...And although the British had with HMS Renown and HMS Repulse two very good battlecruiser coming, the use of instabile Cordite was still a big danger for the ships. Despite design corrections. That's why I have doubts in the effectiveness of the British battlecruiser.
The cordite was less of a problem than the pre-Jutland handling of shells and powder. As I said in my post above, Queen Mary was lost because of poor anti-flash precautions. The Royal Navy at the time believed in rate of fire. Several British ships came to grief at Jutland for ignoring anti-flash precautions.
 
YNCS, good post.
However a few remarks: The British battlecruiser had less armour as they needed the tonnage for sufficient engines for the speeds given. The Germans OTOH had much better engines and believed in protection. Therefore less guns were carried on the ships as their British counterparts. However the armour was up to 10 cm thicker. Additionally the design of the ships let them sustain much more damage. SMS Seydlitz was for instance hit 21 times and also with one torpedo. Although badly damaged she arrived the port.
This design proved to be superior than the British.
Also Hipper, although agressive indeed, he accepted the fight with Beatty and tried to give him to Scheer, what he did.
The British poor precautions of the Cordite was indeed resulting in the loss of the three battlecruiser, and IIRC also of two of the armoured cruiser. However there is a study that if the Germans used that Cordite, SMS Seydlitz and SMS Derfflinger were also lost, despite precautions. That's why I see in this kind of Cordite the most important cause of the loss of the ships.

Adler
 
German ships tended to be more strongly built than their British counterparts. Internal compartmentalization was better and, as you say, the battlecruisers were more heavily armored. British ships tended to be better seaboats (able to operate in heavy weather) and habitability was much better. That's because German ships were designed to operate only in the Baltic and North Sea, while British ships were expected to go anywhere in the world.
 
That's quite correct, however, as SMS Kaiser and SMS König Albert demonstrated with theri sailing around the world 1913/ 1914, they were also able to operate in all oceans. That this was not that comfortable for the crew is indeed another matter.

Adler
 
Anyone here read Campbell’s Jutland? If not, I highly recommend it. Probably the best work in English on the battle. Looks at the battle from the technical aspect. Goes into great detail on the damage suffered by individual ships, when this damage occurred and what effect it had on the ship during the battle. Also very good technical coverage of things like propellant, projectiles, fire control and damage control. The positive and negatives of the two sides in these and much, much more. Most of what I will post here is based upon this work. Unfortunately, the book is packed away where I cant get to easily and I will be going from memory.

First I’ll start with the propellant. British cordite used was defective. A stabilizing agent that was supposed to make it more stable proved to do the opposite. It actually made the cordite less stable. When compared with the German propellant, which was a very much different chemical formula using different ingredients, the British cordite had a tendency to detonate, whereas the German propellant would just burn. It was this tendency to detonate that contributed much towards the catastrophic demise of the 3 British battle cruisers and 3 armoured cruisers. I don’t know if the stability defect was known before Jutland, but it was definitely known after the post battle investigations. It took time to redesign the formula, test it and then put the new cordite into production. The Vanguard, and I think a cruiser which blew up on another occasion as well, had the old cordite still aboard. I think it wasn’t till some time in 1918 that the whole of the cordite supply aboard ship could be fully exchanged.

A second difference between British and German ammunition was the method of containing the charge for the projectile. In British service, medium and larger calibre guns used bagged charges. The larger guns using 2 or more bags per charge to keep the bags manageable. Each bag had its own black powder (IE: old fashioned gunpowder) detonator taped on. These had a tendency to leak gunpowder over the outside of the bags sometimes when the charges were handled. German charges were in metal cases, like small arms cartridges. The larger guns had these charges broken into 2 parts. The metal cased rear charge and a smaller, bagged forecharge. Only the metal cased rear charge contained a detonator and it was protected within the case.

The ammunition train leading from the magazine to the guns probably getting set off might have resulted in the loss of some of the British ships. It almost lead to the loss of the Lyon (but note her ammunition caught fire about a half hour after the turret was knocked out) and probably others including possibly the Malaya. Contrary to common belief, the German flashtighedness of their magazines and ammunition trains was not overall superior to that in British ships. It varied from class to class in the German navy and some classes were better than the British and some were worse and vice versa. The most modern were not necessarily the best, BTW. Overall, the flashtightness of the two country’s ship designs were about on par with each other.

But this is where the instability of British cordite did its damage. Where the German propellant burned, the British detonated, blasting a path right down to the magazine. Had the British cordite been stable like its German counterpart, chances are the fires would not have got to the inside of the magazines. Had the British charges been encased in metal cases, even if fire did reach the magazines, the charges would have been less likely to catch fire. The very flammable loose gunpowder that had leaked out of the detonators in the British charges was another added weakness to the British set-up making their charges more vulnerable still. Campbell makes it quite clear that most British and German set-ups were adequate designs that would keep the magazines isolated when a mount got knocked out as long as stable propellant was in use.

I’ve mostly been describing main gun set-ups so far. The smaller secondary guns in both navies generally used metal cased charges, the smaller weapons having case and projectile united together like a rifle cartridge. The ammunition trains of these guns were very vulnerable in both navies despite the better enclosure of the charges. Most ships of both navies grouped their secondaries into large batteries. These generally shared some of the same ammunition hoists so there had to be access between the different guns and these hoists. depending on the ship, the guns in these batteries were separated from each other by varying degrees of enclosure. But even where they were the most isolated, it was still possible for ammunition going off in one gun bay communicating to the next gun bay over and setting off its ammunition. These gun batteries saved space and weight when compared to conventional turret mounts, but resulted in more vulnerable designs. In those earlier days before sophisticated directors and central gun control, the batteries also made it easier to control the secondaries. Both the Malaya and the König were almost destroyed when ammunition in their secondary batteries went up and came close to reaching their magazines.

There is a good chance that the 6 inch armoured Invincible and Indefatigable (and the slightly less well armoured armoured cruisers) could have been sunk from direct magazine penetrations. The better armoured Queen Mary would have been less likely to have been penetrated to the magazine. Any of these ships could have been lost to turret hits that set off ammunition which then set off the magazines. But as there were no survivors from any of these ships who had direct knowledge of the exact nature of the hits these ships received, a full accounting of why they blew up is still speculation.

One of the interesting things Campbell did while describing the damage that occurred to the ships was to compare what might have happened had these ships had the ammunition set-up of the other country. According to him, had the German ships had British cordite in bagged charges like the British, there would have been a good chance probably all of the German battle cruisers would have blown up along with a couple of German dreadnoughts that also had turrets knocked out. Likewise, had the British used the German set-up, Queen Mary would have survived probably, and probably some of the others would have as well.

I’ll cover other aspects of the design differences between the fleets in later posts, I’m out of steam tonight. ;)
 
Go HMS New Zealand and piupiu. Germans were lucky they didn't have Maori naval marines:)
 
Adler17 said:
Outstanding post! :goodjob: Most probably I try to get this book you mentioned.

Adler

Thanks. I took a quick look on the net and the book is still being sold by many places.
 
Some notes on the projectiles used. The british heavy shells were known to have sidewalls too weak to stand up in oblique hits. If I remember right, this was known as early as 1914, but nothing was done about this till after the battle and I doubt many shells of improved design reached ships before the end of the war. May be wrong about that, and the improved shells might of got developed faster.

It was these weak sidewalls which caused many British shells to break up before penetrating far into the armour they struck. This didn't happen when the angle of impact was near straight on, but on oblique hits where the angle of impact was more than say 15-20% (very roughly). Most hits on ships will be oblique due to the various angles of a ship's structure, the course of the ship relative to the firer and the angle of fall due to range. With the British shells, the sidewalls were too brittle, and when striking at an angle, the impact caused a slight flex in the shell longitudinally which caused the sides to fail many times. This is why a lot of British APC and common shells failed to penetrate armour they should have and caused much lesser damage to the German ships. When hitting close to straight on, they usually did penetrate and cause considerable damage. Especially the 15 inch. Had this sidewall defect not been present in British shells, the internal damage suffered by German ships hit could be easily tripled in extent, with a very different probable outcome of the battle.

So that now puts two major strikes against the Grand Fleet even before any battle started. Defective cordite and defective projectiles. :eek:

Both of these problems were design defects due to government bureaucracy which was most likely coupled to corporate profiteering. Though any paper trail to the latter has long since gone cold, had it ever existed (the British tend to cover up their government/corporate corruption pretty well and don't usually leave much hard evidence in the archives for historians to later record, unfortunately).
 
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