K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

A big problem is after railroads, when you go on offense, a huge army could be lurking 5 or 6 tiles away and hit you with ease, as you slowly move one tile at a time towards a city.

From my experience, its the biggest way an Ai loses. Either the AI puts its army in a border town that you can declare war on at any time with a massive stack of artillery, or going on offense (including with even odds) where your artillery just gets to attack first = insta win.

I think lowering one collaterol dmg target per artillery type wouldnt shift the balance of forces much at all but should devalue artillery a bit. Hitting an army on open ground with cats, works for for a HUGE period of time, when cats should be effectively obsolete.

And perhaps adding a larger collaterol dmg reduction for double/triple first strike upgrades would add a new dynamic, i.e. an army designed to deal with heavy artillery battles. Or increase the bonus that cavlary type units get vs artillery type units, or with upgrades.


Edit: Or even just letting infantry, rifles, or most units, get the bonus vs seige weapons upgrade.
 
@Charles555nc

Did you ever get to complete the Mansa Musa Earth18 map?

I`d like to hear your thoughts and experiences with it.
 
I got crazy distracted by 1.26b and the wonderful pacifism/representation changes with my custom game...but thanks for the reminder.
 
im also afraid to use bug stuff since i dont trust bug parts for mp games...

combat animations on - whats the better way to go? on or off?
Don't be afraid to use the BUG stuff in K-Mod. As far as I know, everything that could cause problems in multiplayer has either been fixed or disabled - if I'm wrong about that, then I'd like for the bugs to be found and reported! :)

For combat animations, I'd really just a matter of personal preference. I play with attack animations off, so that I can play a bit faster, but defence animations on so that I can see how the AI is killing my dudes... (and also because I think it adds a bit of tension and excitement to see armies being attacked). -- I only asked about the animations because it might be relevant for tracking down the bug you reported. Units are deleted at different times depending on whether the animations are on or off.

@Karadoc

I grimly suspect that nothing short of a combat system overhaul is going to fix the collateral damage issue. Like you said, reducing the number of targets affected by the siege units would most likely just encourage people to build even more of them to compensate -- their effectiveness as cannon fodder is way too strong (and the combat effectiveness of a full-health fortified defender too great) to do it any other way.

[...]
You're probably right. But I don't really want to make drastic combat changes in this mod. So I guess that'll be for someone else to work on. I will say though that I don't think the current system is too bad. I don't think there is any single dominant strategy for combat, and I think the tactics are generally dynamic and non-trivial. So I might just leave it alone. The AI might not capable of using the full gamut of tactics available in the game, but I don't think the game mechanics should be balanced around what the AI can and can't understand.

I am a bit temped to reduce the instant healing from promotions though; that's one thing the AI currently is not good at taking advantage of (because currently the AI always uses their promotions as soon as they are available), but as you said, it also discourages certain tactics which probably don't need to be discouraged.

On a side note, I also really wish there was a parameter in the game that could give a unit a combat advantage when it is (specifically) standing on one terrain type and making an attack against a different terrain type - for instance, standing on a hill tile and making an attack against a flatland tile (hello cannons and archers), but I'm not sure how easy that would be to set up. It would do a good little bit in helping open the door to achieving combat realism though. x.x
Hills aren't actually a terrain type, but rather a terrain modifier thing. So probably the best way to implement such a thing would just be to add a single number, elevated attack modifier, or something like that - which simply boosts the attack value when attack from hills to non-hills. It would take a whole lot of extra work to do similar things for all the different terrains, so I think it would be best to just do the hills and leave it at that. I don't expect I'll implement that in the near future, because I don't think I'd use it for K-Mod - but it's a sensible idea. Maybe someone else here will use it.

karadoc,

i know u changes something in the unit military support test style, at first , i didnt see the text file change, bu then i saw in the civics that for like 1 militery support cosy i see a number like 12423543 - so i found out u did that change.

my question is - could it be that ur change affects other parts of the civics - ive added a like that adds commerce changes to buildings via civics - but the number get is similar - 4657687 style instead of like 10% commerce.

is the two related - or is it something i did wrong in my addition perhaps?
I changed the military support costs to be in units of 1/100 gold, rather than just 1 gold. So most of the internal numbers will be a factor of 100 higher than they were. But the problem you are describing doesn't look like just a factor of 100... It looks like just a garbage number. That's the kind of thing I'd expect to see if there was an inconsistency in the code for reading and writing save games.

regarding vassal, the ai circled around my city, with lots of troops, and his vassal was also at the same spot, together, they could destroy my city easily, but they didnt, they just walked around the city a long time only pillaging, and when there was nothing to pillage they just stayed.
it seems they ai dont know that he has combined power of his troops and that of his vassal, maybe he needs to be taught that he can use both armies.
Well.. that kind of situation is a bit tricky. You're right that the AI currently doesn't consider the extra-firepower from its vassal's attack stack. It doesn't really cooperate with its vassals at all. But I'm not entirely sure that it should try to cooperate. After all, they are not on the same team. When I have a vassal, I make a conscious effort not to let the vassal capture cities that I want for myself; so I certainly wouldn't use my stack to weaken the city for my vassal to capture - (and similarly if I was the vassal, I wouldn't want my master to get the city if I thought I had a shot at it). -- The AI isn't really thinking along those lines at all, but I'm just saying that I'm not sure they really want to coordinate attacks with their vassals.

However, in team games (with a permanent alliance), the AI still won't coordinate attacks in that way. It probably should in that case... The main problem is that one player won't really know whether or not their team-mate will actually follow-through with the attack as planned.

I'll keep it in mind.


@Charles555nc, I just changed something with may (or may not) be relevant to your questions about no_tech_brokering. The changes are in the way the AI chooses which techs to research; in particular, I've changed the way it emphasises techs which might be good as trade-chips. As first glace, the code for original AI looked like it would probably work ok.. as though it would just make the AI lean towards unknown techs from time-to-time. But there is a subtle and important flaw in the way it is implemented. The flaw is that it randomly chooses to consider the trade value of techs on a tech-by-tech basis; and so what will happen is that some techs will randomly get a massive value boost for being trade chips, and others will get no boost at all regardless of whether or not they are also good for trade. This trade value thing is not applied at all if no_tech_trading is set, and it is applied with extra strength when no_tech_brokering is set. So what I'm thinking is that maybe no_tech_brokering was easier for you because the AI was choosing techs more or less at random, because of this crummy system.

As I said, that may or may not be what the problem was. (I'm still leaning towards the theory that you just had a particularly lucky game.) -- In any case, I expect it to be smarter in the next version.
 
The single dominant strategy is to throw enough siege at it until you can get consistent high chances for victory, then kill it all with your footsoldiers, who survive and get promotions. While this is happening, you build more siege in preparation for the next wave of assaults. And you have exactly one Medic 3 Great General guy and (if you're feeling spicy) exactly one Woodsman 3 bonus healing guy, and then you hit fortify on your new city and you're back to full health and ready to do it all over again in 2 turns or so. Also, you make a few extra footsoldiers to defend cities you have captured.

Every other military strategy in the game that actually works efficiently (beyond the time Construction is widely available, at any rate) is just a reflavoring of that one. For instance, Draft strategies give you more footsoldiers to flood the enemies out with and lets your cities focus on constructing even more siege instead. Horse-heavy strategies do the same thing with more pillaging and more flexible offense for picking off units that are out in random places.

If you don't have a significant tech lead, that's how you win wars: tons of siege and tons of footsoldiers. Or a fair bit of siege and tons of Cuirassiers if you hit that sweet spot in the late Renaissance where doing that is super strong. And then there's Tanks, which make the Footsoldier part of the formula much more efficient. (Two kills per turn! City Raider availability!)

I mean ... is there some other strategy that I haven't heard about? That seems to be what the Immortal/Deity players do in pretty much every case, and they do it because it works. It's dull and unrealistic (like another poster said, spammed Catapults remain useful way beyond their historical shelf life x.x) but it works extremely well and wins games.
 
What I meant was that most types of units are useful, and we don't always build the same units, and we don't always keep all units in one stack; sometimes it's useful to defend strategic non-city plots, sometimes it isn't; sometimes it's useful to attack the enemy in their land, sometimes its best to wait for them to come to our land; and so on.

It's true that most battles play out in the way that you have said. (Although, there's a guy called Obsolete who's always banging on about how he never uses siege units.) But that wasn't really what I was talking about. In the end I think combat in this game is always going to a matter of: build troops; attack in the best order to minimize casualties; heal / rebuild. The hope for good gameplay is that there will be some interesting tactical decisions to make along the way.

The suicide-siege game mechanics have always been considered one of the weakest parts of Civ4 realism...

By the way, I recently learned that woodsman 3 only stacks with medic 3 if it is on the same unit.
 
Nice mod, Karadoc, thank you very much for your effort. I was especially impressed by improved AI.
I tried to make some XML changes to rebalance the game to my taste, but it led to CTDs in lategame. Is it possible that my changes triggered some bug in your DLL? I described what i did in detail in this thread.
 
Lets be real, what upgrades do we rarely see (and thus have huge potential for added gameplay and strategy when balanced).

First strike upgrades- 1. huge potential for anti artillery (if the collateral dmg reduction was potentially increased or a bonus vs artillery) Only time I see it now with the AI....on Japanese Samuari, and for some reason they never really seem to do well with them either.

City Defender upgrade- 2. rarely used by the ai, but potentially powerful all game, IF the ai valued rifling and actually used the city defender upgrades in enough numbers, (potential also here to add the collateral damage reduction on the 2nd or 3rd upgrade, or a bonus vs artillery for balance purposes).

Explorer unit- 3 maybe add an ability, similar to medic, where having an explorer in a stack reduces collateral damage? They dont upgrade into anything...be nice to give them a real role in doing something. In ww1 infantry recon units would have to scout out artillery positions for counter assaults...

Or the flip side of the coin,

4. reducing the number of targets effect by collateral dmg by 1 (seems perfectly fair to me, like I said even cats are overpowered for a long period of time) Just 2 or 3 power points off a unit;s health leads to easy odds with "the mop up" crew.

5. Increasing the cost of artillery type units in shields.

I would say to Karadoc, dont be afraid to try some of these options (you can always change them back later if you dont like it). If you want to upload some experimental version, I would love to try it.

If it were me, I would use my ideas 1, 3, and 4. And play a couple games (with the ai valuing the crap out of rifling :D).
 
@Gavagay, I'll look into it. As I said in an earlier (and unrelated) post, it should be possible to make any changes you like to the xml without crashing the game... so the crash is probably my fault somehow. I'll test it later today. Do you happen to have a save game which demonstrates a CTD?

[edit]
I've run 2 full autoplay games from start to finish with your Universal Suffrage changes. It didn't crash. So I'm going to need more information to find the problem. I need something that will definitely make it crash.
[/edit]

@Charles555nc, regarding the lack of city defenders; did you try playing with aggressive AI off? I suspect they'll fewer defenders with aggressive AI - because they're spending more of their production building attackers. By the way, the way I see it, aggressive AI isn't meant to change how difficult the game is, but rather just make the AI more focused on killing you (and each other). I almost never play with aggressive AI myself, so I don't really know how well it works...

Regarding the undervaluing of rifling; I've recently rewritten the tech evaluation of units to be a bit more flexible. It should now recognise that riflemen as versitile, and thus more important than, say, grenadiers or machine-guns. (Actually, I think the AI is mostly interested in railroad for the railroads and mining inc. -- and you mentioned scientific method earlier.. but I can tell you that they really aren't interested in scientific method; they just tend to get it early because it's what a great-scientist can bulb; and because they really like communism for some reason.)

Anyway, for the rebalancing of siege units, I think I'm more likely to reduce the max-targets cap than I am to increase the collateral damage resistance of the promotions. The thing is, expect that reducing the target cap would be an indirect buff to the collateral resistance anyway - because ... well actually I don't feel like writing a long explanation for that at the moment. Sorry. But I assure you that it would be an indirect boost! I'm not going to change that for the next version anyway.
 
I'm playing around with a total rework of the base combat strengths and effects of the existing units in the XML. If I come up with anything that actually doesn't suck I'll be sure to post it.

Currently I'm experimenting with the "targets X unit first outside of cities" and "defends first against Y unit" tags to create more interesting early tactical-rock-paper-scissors triangles in the field. A key component of this is that a "Defends first against Y" tag trumps a "targets X first" tag. (So I can have unit A prefer to target unit B, unless the defending stack also has unit C which can preferentially defend against unit A.) I'm also going to do my darnedest to make Siege units relevant without becoming cannon fodder.

Wish me luck. And, if I get anything together that is good, I'll try to work with someone to get proper AI support in for it as well.
 
Very good stuff. The changes here pretty much wipe the floor with Firaxis' attempts at balancing the game as well as UI. The game is very hard on Noble as the AI seems a lot more trigger happy and will do stuff like go for rifling. It would seem (at least to me) that it's very hard to win peacefully since they attack you if your power is weak. They also make some rather huge amount of units-- even constantly building units and I can't keep up with them in power rating >.> I ended up having to burn their cities to the ground. :o And I even went grenadiers because it was faster after I got steel. XD Who does that regularly on this difficulty?

AIs are also really eager to dogpile people. This is good.

I like the environmentalism idea. Though I note Rep is now high upkeep; my feeling is that skewed it towards more war. o.o I think some other things like slavery and state property would deserve to be nerfed first. The Vassalage thing I like. Pacifism having lower cost feels overpowered for the timing it's used.

One thing I really liked is that the AI will offer multiple techs to trade which is sorta cool. I like the fact that AI will burn cities more aggressively, though it seems they make too many siege units (and often keep trailing in siege units) if the main stack is destroyed.

In general there seems to be more sense to what the AI does. The game runs more smoothy and the AP change is very good, to my dismay. :D The restriction is reasonable. The new ability to kick religions out serves as another guard against the AP.

I think the AI should go for less pre-siege wars unless it's horse archers or something. They do a lot better when siege is involved, for obvious reasons.

The final touch is that it seems auto workers do not commit suicide.

I remember about better Ai that you could signal your vassals to attack or prepare for war. Is that in this?

Will anything be done about barb galleys?

A lot of dead units:

Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0049-2.jpg


Look at Mehmed go!
Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0050-2.jpg



And damn, I should have read about boosting serfdom since I oracled feudalism >.>
 

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I often considered the constant warring, part of the "evil genius" of the aggressive ai, in the early ages. Little land is won or lost, but the great generals coming pouring in. By the time the late game wars start, they often have a capital full of great generals and are getting 3 upgrade level units out of their cap (hopefully with a heroic epic also).

I will have to try a game without aggressive ai. I never thought about selecting it, just did it on instinct.
 
I ran some more simulations and it looks like that crash is caused not by civics by bombard. When I removed bombard from my mod, crashes seemed to stop; but when I left bombard in game and put back default civics, I still had a crash (though it happened a few turns later in the same savegame; may be crash is triggered by someone triing to build a bombard and changing civics may delay this moment or bring it closer).
This is still very strange because earlier I played several sims with bombard present and everything was fine. Crashes started only after I meddled with civics.
 
I downloaded your modified files, and I used them to assemble what I assume you were using as your mod. (I made a copy of K-Mod, renamed it to S-Mod to match the mod name of your save game; and I copied the files one by one into the locations each file is usually found. I'm not sure why you didn't just upload the whole mod.)

Anyway, I ran the save-game on autoplay for 35 turns with the latest K-mod dll, and 20 turns with K-Mod v1.26b. It didn't crash either time. I also ran it for a few turns using the debug version of the dll (which is much slower, but sometimes reveals non-crash problems). It ran without trouble.

However, I notice that the civilopedia entry for the Bombard unit doesn't work; and when I used the worldbuilder to create a bombard unit, the graphics didn't work for it.

I looked at the art xml for it, and noticed it refers to Art/Units/Bombard/Bombard.nif and Art/Units/Bombard/Bombard.kfm. Neither of those files exist in the zip you uploaded. Perhaps it is meant to be bombardb.nif and bombardb.kfm.

In any case, I'm starting to think this isn't a bug in K-Mod at all, but rather a problem caused by corrupt / invalid graphics files. If you have a save game from immediately before the crash, then I'll check it again... otherwise I think I'll have to let you work it out. (It's a bit of a pest to run the game for 30 turns looking for a problem and then not finding anything.)
 
OK, I'm really sorry, but it looks like it was my mistake after all. I made some alterations to art xml (those, which you noticed and some more) and it looks like that crashes stopped.
I didn't upload the whole mod because for some reason thought that the file would be too large. Now I looked at its actual size and realized that it is rather small. Sorry again.
 
Just playing this on Noble a bit more.

I have a potential autoworkers bug. If I click auto trade network or auto workers on these guys, they are stuck to the fort and don't do anything. If I click improve nearest city they run elsewhere. If I move them and set them on auto they just run back to the fort.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0051-2.jpg


Also, they keep declaring war on me despite me being #1 in soldiers by a significant margin. That can't be good for them can it?
 

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OK, I'm really sorry, but it looks like it was my mistake after all. I made some alterations to art xml (those, which you noticed and some more) and it looks like that crashes stopped.
I didn't upload the whole mod because for some reason thought that the file would be too large. Now I looked at its actual size and realized that it is rather small. Sorry again.
No problem. Goodluck with the rest of your mod stuff.

Just playing this on Noble a bit more.

I have a potential autoworkers bug. If I click auto trade network or auto workers on these guys, they are stuck to the fort and don't do anything. If I click improve nearest city they run elsewhere. If I move them and set them on auto they just run back to the fort.
It does sound like a bug. I'll look into it shortly. My guess is that it has something to do with "automated workers leave existing improvements", or whatever that option is called. I reckon they want to replace the fort with a plantation, but when they get their they decide they actually aren't allowed to...
 
I am a bit temped to reduce the instant healing from promotions though; that's one thing the AI currently is not good at taking advantage of (because currently the AI always uses their promotions as soon as they are available), but as you said, it also discourages certain tactics which probably don't need to be discouraged.

Removing (or at least greatly reducing) the unit healing that comes from choosing a promotion would also help active defense feel more valuable. Right now you're severely punished (in most circumstances) for making any kind of attack that doesn't wipe out the enemy stack. In contrast, being on the defensive and failing to wipe out the attackers is fine, because you can clean them up on your next turn after promoting, while the enemies are still stuck with zero movement and are damaged. The disparity between those two scenarios is really too high in my opinion, and units healing from promotions is a big culprit in that (so is defensive Medic / city tile healing / etc.). It accentuates (rather than minimizes) the combat-resolution problems that come from this being a turn-based game.

I'm really intrigued by this idea, I think I'll mod it in and see how things go. Do you know off-hand where the healing value is defined?
 
You may want to change your first post! It seems the mod was last updated a year ago, due to a typo. 2011.
 
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