K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

Well 1.38try 3 is a fail. Peter invaded my homeland after I won two long wars and vassaled my other neighbors. Apparently, he got chemistry way before me, so his large number of frigates stopped any reinforcements for my beseiged island cities, and after he landed on my mainland he got cannons before I could get rifles (two turns away from rifles when his cannons broke one of my 3 major production cities). I surrendered my sword in humuliation :D I just got outplayed.

Onto 1.38t4, where Zululand invaded me very early and took two cities, but massive food supplys, forest chopping, and slaving has lead to a reconquista of the two lost cities and a pushing forward into his lands with 12 veteran axemen looking for a little pay back....

Not one step back!!!
 
Hows everyone doing?

Anyone having an interesting game? Im currently alone on an island that has mega poor resources, but I got early marble so Im going specialist focused...plotting to take over a rich island elsewhere :D

How ya doing Karadoc?
 
I'm part way through a 2-player game on a huge map. I feel like I'm doing pretty well - I have lots of cities, with decent land, I've got Mining Inc. and Sushi Co. -- But somehow there are a couple of AI players who have way stronger productivity and research. My friend and I are playing mostly cooperatively but we're struggling to keep up in tech.

Gandhi got all of the late-game wonders, due to great tech and productivity, but he doesn't seem to be going for any particular type of victory, so I reckon I might be able to sneak past him for a space-race win. Qin Shi Huang is also one of the big AI's, and he has the Apollo program - so it looks like he might have had a shot a space win, but not anymore... because Bismark is wiping the floor with him.

Bismark's military power is more than double anyone else's, and he has already wiped out two smaller civs. So I think this game is basically going to come down to the order that Bismark chooses to kill people... If he picks Gandhi before me, I'll win. Otherwise... I probably won't. -- and if Bismark stalls or something, it's going to be a close race between me and Gandhi.
 
Thank you for your work, karadoc. I'm going to start my first game with your mod now after too easy a culture victory with a random start on emperor in unmodded BtS.
A few questions (not only about the mod):

1) How much did you reduce AI cheating beyond removing knowledge of tiles? Are details in the changelog? (haven't gone through all of it)
2) Which other AI cheats remain besides handicaps?

Maybe add some quick info on religion changes on the download page for those checking it out?

3) Is there a mod or anything I could do myself to reduce the graphics demands below lowest ingame settings?
4) Have you thought about how less predictable technology progress could work? Some randomized prerequisites with the tech tree being revealed only gradually? Partly blind research similar to Alpha Centauri? Or is this of no interest to you?

Thank you.
 
A question: I think I have mentioned this before but I am not sure if anyone answered. In several occasions, I saw an AI big stack attacking my city but instead of attacking first with siege units, it started attacking with some other unit(s) then switched to siege units. Isn't it ALWAYS better to start with attacking with siege units first if you are making a committed attack? Is this a small battle AI bug or am I missing something?
 
What is this error when loading a save game:
"Cannot load version 303, expected 302 or lower."
If I load the mod first, then load the savegame, it's fine.
 
I won that game I mentioned. Bismark stalled a bit due to voluntary vassals breaking free and needing to be reabsorbed. He did manage to conquer Qin Shi Huang, and he also got most of his spaceship done. He was only missing one part. -- Anyway, with his stagnating war efforts, as I predicted, the race between me and Gandhi was very close. In fact, I launched my space just one turn before he launched his. -- So it was a close game.

--
Here are some answers to recent questions:
1) How much did you reduce AI cheating beyond removing knowledge of tiles? Are details in the changelog? (haven't gone through all of it)
2) Which other AI cheats remain besides handicaps?
Here's a bit of background info: The AI is written in such a way that the programmer has to explicitly check whether or not each thing 'should' be known by the AI. For example, to check whether its city is under threat, the AI will check the map data directly to see what units are nearby, and then it will check stuff like "do I actually have vision on that plot; is that unit 'invisible'; if so, do I have something in the area which can see invisible units; ..." and so on. In this paradigm it's easy to 'accidentally' make the AI check. It isn't always obvious when or how the AI is cheating; it actually takes effort for the programmer to make the AI not cheat.

So with this in mind it's hard to say exactly what cheats remain, but I can say 'not many'; and (as far as I know) all of the cheats are related to information. ie. there are no cases where the AI gets special combat advantages, and no cases where they can do things which would be impossible for a human player to do. But there are still some cases where the AI uses information that a human wouldn't have direct access to.

In most cases, the AI's vision cheating has been removed. It no longer knows about cities it hasn't seen, and it can't calculate the size of a stack that it can't see (including city defences and so on). But there are still some cases where the AI knows it can attack something which it technically should not know about. This is most noticeable in naval warfare, because in many cases the AI will know it can attack you (and know the odds) without even being able to see you... I don't intend to remove that particular cheat, because without it, the current AI would be completely useless in naval warfare. It doesn't try to predict where units it has seen have moved, and so it would simply never find any of your ships unless you ended turn right next to them...

Aside from the vision cheating; K-Mod has removed a few minor & strange AI cheats - I think some of these cheats were actually created by the 'better AI' mod. For example, AI units on the coast use to be able to jump into adjacent boats without using any movement points. AI spies use to be able to move and then do a mission on the same turn (but in most cases they would choose not to do so anyway).

Some other cheats still remain, but that are pretty minor. The only ones which come to mind are that the AI players know how much of your world map they don't yet have. (They need this cheat to properly evaluate map trading. - In fact, I'm tempted to give similar information to the human players rather than remove the information from the AI.). And in some cases, for example when the AI is evaluating which building to destroy with espionage, the AI acts as though it has internal vision of the city. ie. when it is evaluating a building in an enemy city, it sometimes takes into account stuff like the city's health & happiness, and the state of the commerce slider and stuff like that even if it shouldn't have that information.

Actually, in some sense that espionage stuff is a cheat that I added myself. The original evaluation of espionage missions was so basic that it didn't make full use of that info... ... hmm... now I'm wondering if I should remove the AI's ability to evaluate buildings when it doesn't have vision of the city. It's tricky though, because without that evaluation they'd essentially have no idea whatsoever of what to sabotage, whereas a human player would be able to reliably guess that info anyway. (It would take a huge amount of programming to allow the AI to use such guesses rather than the true numbers in their evaluations - so I'm certainly not going to do that.)

Maybe add some quick info on religion changes on the download page for those checking it out?
I probably should do that. But I'm not really sure what I should write for it. The changes to the spread of religion only have a fairly subtle effect on the game; and most of the details are just technical stuff which probably wouldn't be of much interest to most people. -- But I suppose that if I'm saying it's a big new feature, I should at least say what has been changed...

3) Is there a mod or anything I could do myself to reduce the graphics demands below lowest ingame settings?
Not that I know of. The in-game settings show only single-unit graphics and to not animate the unit are probably helpful; but other than that, I don't know.
4) Have you thought about how less predictable technology progress could work? Some randomized prerequisites with the tech tree being revealed only gradually? Partly blind research similar to Alpha Centauri? Or is this of no interest to you?
I wouldn't say it's of no interest to me, but it is beyond the scope of this mod.

--
A question: I think I have mentioned this before but I am not sure if anyone answered. In several occasions, I saw an AI big stack attacking my city but instead of attacking first with siege units, it started attacking with some other unit(s) then switched to siege units. Isn't it ALWAYS better to start with attacking with siege units first if you are making a committed attack? Is this a small battle AI bug or am I missing something?
Well, it isn't always better to start with the siege units. In some cases, the non-siege units might have good winning odds while the siege units have losing odds - and so it might be worth skipping the siege units so save them for a different city; or maybe just to let a non-siege unit take out the best defender to see if that gives good odds to the siege unit afterward...

In terms of the AI, two possible reasons for what you saw come to mind: The AI will attack with non-siege units if the odds are very good. (I don't remember the exact number off the top of my head.). Secondly, the AI might attack with non-siege units first if the units are in different groups and for reason they have decided to move the non-siege ones first. (This will be very rare, because units with collateral damage are generally given high priority for the AI to move first.)

What is this error when loading a save game:
"Cannot load version 303, expected 302 or lower."
If I load the mod first, then load the savegame, it's fine.
That's a problem which is difficult to fix. Here's what's happened:

A couple of times in long-past versions of K-Mod, I changed some things in the format of save games. Since older versions of K-Mod cannot load these newer saves without crashing, I decided I might as well make use of the "save version" feature which already exists in the game. I increased the save version from 302 to 303 to explicitly block the loading of the new save games with old versions of K-Mod. That worked fine, but unfortunately it turns out that the version check is done before the Mod check when loading the save – and so, as you have seen, the game will simply refuse to load K-Mod saves rather than suggesting that the mod should be loaded first. In my view, that's a bug in the game. It should check the mod first, and _then_ the save version. But that bug can't be fixed with a mod.

I could decrease the save version back to 302, but if I did that then all existing K-Mod saves would fail to load. If I ever change the save format again, that would be a good time to bring the save version back down. I might do that if I remember.

goodlistener said:
Noticed that I only start paying maintenance due to distance when I have 3 cities.
Is that different in the unmodded game?
 
Any thoughts to the next patch?

-things you want to accomplish, things that still bother you etc etc.

Im not rushing you, just curious to what your focus is aimed at for the future.
 
karadoc, which difficulty level did you play on?
And yes, in unmodded game 2nd city incurs maintenance due to distance.
I usually play on Emperor in single player; and in these multiplayer games, I play on Deity and my friend plays on Prince - which produces a game difficulty of Emperor anyway.

You're right about the distance maintenance. Apparently it's a bug I created two years ago when I was changing State Property. I thought I'd written a completely equivalent calculation for the distance maintenance, but I now see it was subtly different when there are only two cities. I'll fix it for the next version.

(In K-Mod, State Property doesn't remove colony maintenance - it only removes distance maintenance. In the unmodded game it removed both, because colony maintenance is based on distance maintenance.)

-
@Charles555nc, The main focus for the next version is fixing the 2-city distance maintenance bug. But maybe there'll be a couple of other changes as well. It's hard to know for sure.
 
Karadoc what do you think of the Vikings? I just played a game as them and remembered why I hated them. the UU and UB don't seem to work. What good is the amphibious promotion? If you're attacking another continent, why not just land troops so you can hit the city with siege? The only advantage to amphibious attacks is speed. In the late game this works with marines because ships and planes can bombard the city defenses and collateral damage the defenders before your marines attack. As for the Viking berserker, he's virtually no different than a normal maceman. When can you amphibiously attack a city in the middle ages? That city will have easily 80-150% defenses, and fortified CG1 or CG2 longbows. There's no way a berserker could get good odds against that. You would need to land a stack with catapults/trebs and bombard city defenses, but if you do that, what's the use of amphibious? Not to mention that galleys can only carry two units so the logistics of amphibious assaults in that era of the game are daunting. It seems to be yet another example of Firaxis making a UU in an attempt to give the game flavour without thinking about gameplay. The UB is garbage too. Navigation is hardly a game-changing promotion. Oh sure it's better than nothing but compare it to the Carthaginian cothon.
What do you think? What do others think? Am I alone in my feeling that the Viking UU and UB are unimpressive?
As for how to improve the situation...well...it depends if we wanted to keep the Viking flavour or if we just wanted to make a useful unit/building. I'd rather have combat 1 on my ships than navigation. An extra movement point doesn't do much for me if I can't win sea battles. As for the berserker, I'd rather just give him a slightly better city attack bonus. Amphibious is completely worthless on him. If you still wanted to keep the Viking flavour of attacking from the sea I think it would require some serious changes to the Vikings, probably beyond the scope of this mod, such as giving them a galley capable of bombarding city defenses. Perhaps you could make the berserker ignore walls/castles but then it might be overpowered.
 
*** In K-Mod, State Property doesn't remove colony maintenance ***

Ahhhh, this explains why suddenly state property is not an auto win on these huge sea maps anymore. I wondered if I did something wrong, but that was change in KMod (and a good one, much better decision making required now in end game).

And regarding difficulty levels. I still wait for our first immortal win on maps (huge) like oasis or global highlands with the newer KMod versions. The AI is tremendosly better in its warfare and tech paths than before. However in emperor we win 90% of the games in these maps, but this is more a problem of the easier maintaining of empires with city count >30 in emperor
 
Just random thoughts...

1.When using show enemy moves, maybe dont show workers, or workers not near borders, might speed up the game for those that use it

2. Global warming still very unpleasant for me, get ai to more highly focus on recycling centers when pollution reaches threshold? (perhaps provide a production discount for the ai to balance?)

3, Forest preserve- give it one or two commerce points for tourism? or a +1 culture point (again tourism)

4. Give cavalry, a small attack bonus vs artillery

5. Make ai go into "emergency mode" when losing a war, or doesnt have a certain
minimum size army, extra use of slavery/drafting/production tiles. Have it also apply if they just made peace after losing territory.

6. Maybe have great people who join cities as super specialists provide +1 GPP of their own type, to provide a more difficult choice between unlocking technology instantly or adding them to a city.
 
Cultural Victory seems to be harder/rarer than in vanilla. If i am right are there any plans regarding that subject?
 
@teejing: What do you mean harder? Sure, in Kmod there are some reductions in early game cultural output, like the cathedrals provide +40% instead of 50%, and a monastary 1 instead of 2, but the coliseum produces 20% instead of 0. Furthermore, in Vanilla, having massive cultural output VERY rarely flipped any neighbour cities. In Kmod cultural output is much more important (due to the near removal of free culture). This means that if you are going for a cultural victory you will more than likely flip many cities into your empire. It's almost like conquest without war. This makes going for a cultural victory a less risky strategy, because your empire's size and power will grow as you move towards that goal. It make take a few turns longer to achieve, but by the end game you should be one of the most powerful civs in the world. I just won a cultural victory in a monarch game as Hatshepsut. I only settled 5 cities on my own and in the middle ages was about 3rd place for GNP and MFG. By the time I won, around 1900, I had 11 cities and was first place in land area, pop, GNP, MFG, and all that and I had declined half the cities that flipped to me. Cultre in Kmod is so powerful it's close to being overpowered, there's no way it is underpowered.
 
Ugh...elephants are still too powerful. I just had a game as Carthage and elephants completely wiped my stack. They win or withdraw better than 50% of the time against spears, so my spears didn't really stop them, and then they just trampled my catapults, axes, and numidian cavalry. There was no way to counter them. Although, by that point, I'd already taken a few Roman cities so I made peace. Then I got a great engineer and bulbed guilds and got knights very early in the game, around the same time other civs had just finished feudalism for longbows. I upgraded my numidians and added crossbows to my stack. I had to attack Rome fast because I was getting choked out by Roman culture. My knights got countered by the elephants, and again, my entire stack got trampled by them, even though 1/3 of my stack were spears.
The team at Firaxis was obviously not interested in balance at all. They obviously didn't put much thought into the game design details. The elephant unit is just stupid. It wrecks classic age units and it's still really powerful in the medieval age, the only thing that counters it is a pike, and even then, shock elephants will survive many battles against pikes, pikes aren't even a hard counter to them. They are already strength 8, which is as strong as macemen which come much later, and only 1 str behind muskets. Seriously, an elephant can threaten a gunpowder unit! And, elephants beat knights, which come much later and cost much more. They destroy all archers in the field and beat maces (because they have 1 more promotion) and can still take on pikes. I think they should be dropped to 7 strength and lose their bonus vs mounted.
 
I dont know if this needs to be said, but if you lowered ele's power to 7 AND got rid of their bonus vs mounted, then there would be no reason at all to make elephants.

Im more surprised you werent complaining about praetorians...

Now about France's Salon... :D
 
sure there would be reason to build them. At 7 strength they would still overpower all classic age units. They would be just as powerful as horse archers. Let's say you didn't have horses and went straight to construction because you had ivory. Between axes and elephants which would you build? 7 strength and 2 promotions looks pretty good compared to 5 strength and 1 promotion. Do you see how overpowered they are? They completely destroy everything! It's like having a resource called "chuck norris". Whoever gets it wins the game. Seriously. Who needs praetorians, who needs iron, who needs oil, who needs anything, just get ivory, and you win. And if your neighbour has ivory, watch out, because anything you build before the age of rifles will be countered.
 
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