K-Mod: Far Beyond the Sword

[Charles555nc]

Mana Musa is about 20 turns or less from winning cultural win...so the closest ai, Roosevelt declares war on Me and lands with a tiny army that will likely burn one city and then be destroyed.

Shouldnt the Roosevelt Ai ask me to help destroy the guy who is gonna win in the next 20 turns, rather than making sure we both lose?

This question is for everyone. Ty.

 

[noto2]

Yep - the AI does that. We discusses this before, do you want an AI that is all about roleplaying? (won't attack you if you're friendly, no matter what, and will attack its enemies) or do you want an AI that plays like a human? (will backstab and do whatever is necessary to win) or something in between? Kmod AI is closer to the cold calculating human side of that spectrum than regular BTS AI, but Kmod AI still roleplays quite a bit. Your scenario happens to me nearly every game - there will be some civ that is running away in tech and I'm scratching my head trying to think about how to stop them, and then some backwards civ with four hundred million obsolete units declares war on me, which is suicide for them and just slows me down. Maybe I have 50 infantry and 20 artillery, and some douchebag invades me with 80 elephants. Of course another thing to consider is perhaps that civ that attacked you was bribed into doing so by another civ.

 

[Charles555nc]

Im actually glad you brought this up, because I think it might be an issue of the map generator giving much better land to different civs...maybe that should be looked at...civs on their own island (with no one else) always get worse land compared to ppl that share a single continent (I almost hate being on my own continent alone)...those civs that share a continent get the benefits of trade, trade techs, and spreading religion amongst themselves, and definitely better land. So maybe the civ starts should be more balanced, value wise?

Thats usually how the "super ai" gets started...it builds towards its neighbors and has awesome land, whereas their neighbors tend to build sideways and have to deal with rain forest, desert, or mass plains...

And about the declaring war save thing, I know what we kinda discussed it before, Im more talking about the end of the game, not the whole game. And what are the roles being played? Seems more random at that point, not really playing a role.

There was really no reason, role playing or not, that I could see. Certainly no recent causus bellae or possible advantage it could gain. And is bribery still a possibility that late in the game? If it was the super civ that bribed him then I guess Im just totally wrong, but idk. I think an announcement would be cool "mansa musa bribed so and so to attack you". So I could legit know I got outplayed (that game was lost anyway probably).

And I directed this question at everyone, to be clear, as there seem to be people returning/new and Im also learning new things (like the bribery thing did not occur to me, must have given them a tech or two if it did happen cause the ai doesnt hoard gold much).

And, in the end, arent u agreeing with me? lol.

 

[noto2]

Oh I agree that it's annoying, I'm just not sure that anything can/should be done about it. The AI in civ does NOT know when someone is near victory, therefore they do not change their behaviour at the "end game". Civ AI plays exactly the same whether it is 1 turn before the end or 5 turns into the game. For one thing, even if you asked Karadoc to change this it might not be possible. I don't know if the programming allows the AI to understand how close someone is to victory, especially cultural and space. There aren't any modifiers like "you are in the lead". There is "we fear you are becoming too advanced" but that's complete crap and useless as it is based on tech trades.

 

[shulgi]

I always get attacked when I am nearing a spaceship victory, I am pretty sure culture scenarios are similar but I have only gone culture once. Dom/conquest - well there isn't much the AI can do at that point. I am pretty sure the AI knows when victory is closing in, or at least so I heard. In Charles' scenario Roosevelt definitely should have attacked Mansa but this needs some more thought. Does this mean that the soon-to-be victor should expect to see a dogpile by everyone still in the game? Part of me says yes, part of me says that this makes some types of victory i.e. culture impossible for the human and the AI.

 

[Tigranes]

If I could suggest, please dont hint that because the barbs are simplistic that kmod isnt the best ai mod out there, cause it is...

I would be very interested to see why do you think so? So far I am completely unconvinced and unimpressed. Which was your moment when you saw something and said: Aww, that's smart. Previous AI would never guess to do something smart like this?

Here is another example:

As you can see I am closing on Indian capital. Indians got couple of Longbows finally, so what would the smart AI do? Sure thing -- promote those Longbows to city defenders and fortify them inside the city. See that Indian Longbow on the forest tile? He left his city garrison duty to kill my lousy Archer! Another friend of his wasted his life trying to attack my Elephant while his odds against that Elephant would be far higher if he just sit behind that city walls. So capital was left to pathetic defenders -- Agra fell to me in next 2 turns and India vassalized to me.


Yet another awkward moment for, this time, Spanish AI:

So Spanish are fighting with me and just achieved Naval Superiority with their Caravels. Guess what do they do with their fleet? They manage to park Caravels in that Sugary Fort, right next to the front line (next to the enemy city!) and my Elephant is ready to sink them! Few turns later the third Caravel followed the suit and got crashed the very same way!

These are just easy-to-show stupidities. One needs a movie to show how Indian stack came next to my well defended city then stepped one tile back, then forth, then back, then forth, for something like 10 turns, until my relief force came and wiped attackers off.

 

[Tigranes]

The barbarian warrior definitly can't see your city on this screenshot. The city was founded only few terns ago and I somehow doubt it would be undefended if barbarians have already scouted it.
Therefore, there is actually no reason for the warrior to move to this square.

But he can see my culture where my arrow points to. He can see the Hill with a Mine but no city. Surely my capital cannot produce culture that far on the beach tile. So he needs to figure that there has to be a new city somewhere close by -- and don't go towards my capital which is likely to be defended.

 

[Mattygerst]

Tigranes:

If you want potential fixes, posting the save games as opposed to only pictures would do more to help. What would do even more would be to not get into a bickering match of what is and isn't stupid by the AI. I think everyone can agree that the AI is not as good as a human. However, is it better than vanilla AI? I think the answer is very likely yes. Karadoc has made the AI much better, to be sure. If you have legitimate gripes, this is certainly the place to post them. At the same time...being respectful would be nice. As would posting save games of things you think are a cause for concern. Afterall - I'm pretty sure if you still are playing Civ4 that you also would like to see it "fixed" as you see fit...Karadoc is nearly your last and only hope to help you.

 

[noto2]

@Tigranes: What are you trying to argue, that Kmod AI is worse than regular BTS AI? Or that it is the same? Because if you are, you are the first person in this thread to ever make that argument. Try to be more specific. I'm not sure why a longbow would attack an elephant outside of a city, you can ask Karadoc. As for moments when I've said "wow this AI is smart", they've happened too many times to count, but I'm not going to dig through past games and post screenshots for you, no one is. If you think Kmod sucks, don't play it. If you have questions about specific AI behaviour, then please, ask away.
As for the barbarian warrior - barbs can easily be baited by workers or weak units, they can be distracted from attacking your city

 

[stolenrays]

I have compared the Kmod AI with BBAI by merging both seperately with my IIW Dll. I found that the wasting of single units such as artillery and gunships stops with the KMOD AI. War becomes more tactical IMO. There is a sig difference improvement IMO with KMOD. There still might be some problems, bugs, etc but they aren't any larger than the ones in BBAI.

 

[Tigranes]

Tigranes:

At the same time...being respectful would be nice.

Can you please point out the exact phrase you found to be disrespectful to anyone? There is no need to load a save game to point out the obvious fail. It would be helpful if you post at least one screenshot to illustrate your point.

 

[Tigranes]

I have compared the Kmod AI with BBAI by merging both seperately with my IIW Dll. I found that the wasting of single units such as artillery and gunships stops with the KMOD AI. War becomes more tactical IMO. There is a sig difference improvement IMO with KMOD. There still might be some problems, bugs, etc but they aren't any larger than the ones in BBAI.

I never wrote anything about wasting Catapult to wear down my attacking force. That happens alot and is legitimate as opposed to Longbow.

Here is another example. K-Mod hint states that occasionally rookies will defend experienced units during the stack attack, so that best attacker will not always meet best defender, which makes sense. However when I was attacking unit by unit it happened that K-mod picked 0.9 strength enemy Longbow defender to face my full force Elephant, while they had better defending units (and yet still inferior to my attacker). Now this a very artificial and unfair approach, feels like a new AI cheat.

 

[Tigranes]

@Tigranes: What are you trying to argue, that Kmod AI is worse than regular BTS AI? Or that it is the same? Because if you are, you are the first person in this thread to ever make that argument. Try to be more specific. I'm not sure why a longbow would attack an elephant outside of a city, you can ask Karadoc. As for moments when I've said "wow this AI is smart", they've happened too many times to count, but I'm not going to dig through past games and post screenshots for you, no one is. If you think Kmod sucks, don't play it. If you have questions about specific AI behaviour, then please, ask away.
As for the barbarian warrior - barbs can easily be baited by workers or weak units, they can be distracted from attacking your city

There was no worker or weak unit on the screenshot provided.

I am not trying to argue, and I am not telling you what to do. And I was VERY specific 5 different times. Now, you are trying to argue, you are telling me what to do and you are not being specific at all. "Too many times to count?" and yet "I'm not going to post"? Does not sound very specific, does it?

 

[Todd Hawks]

While I do feel that the tactical AI (which is what all your examples are about) seems better than in the vanilla game, it could, of course, be a lot better still.

Where K-Mod's AI really shines, in my opinion, is in the economical aspects of the game, i.e. building up a strong, prosperous and advanced civilization that is able to actually compete with you up until the end of the game.

Other than that, if you so strongly feel like K-Mod doesn't bring you any benefits... why come here with post after argumentative post instead of just not playing the mod? I don't see the need to defend my/our opinion that the AI is better. If you don't think that... fine. Up to you.

 

[noto2]

Tigranes: It is not our job to sell Kmod to you. Those of us who play it (100? 1000? 10000? I don't know...) come here and we play it because we think it's better than BBAI or retail, if you don't like it don't play it, and don't come here and troll the thread. If you want to report bugs then you need to post a save. If you want to talk about general features of Kmod, that's fine, I myself have made many posts complaining about something, but to be honest I find your posts difficult to understand. Sorry, I just don't understand what you're complaining about, but good luck finding answers to it. Perhaps someone else here understands your posts.

 

[Charles555nc]

Tigranes:

Karadoc is always adjusting the aggressiveness of the ai, its pathfinding, its decision making etc etc, and sometimes these adjustments reveal new bugs or incorrect decisions. So the best thing to do is point it out respectfully, and Im like you, I'm not a sensitive person. But Karadoc has spent years working on this, with an army of loyal happy players behind him (myself included), so saying his ai is almost as bad as vanilla can definitely be seen as disrespectful in that context.

So, point it out, leave a save of it, and see what the mod master Karadoc says

Ill never go back to vanilla myself, never!

 

[karadoc]

@Tigranes, I'm sorry that the AI in K-Mod doesn't meet your standards. Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to make a new mod to fix the weaknesses in my AI. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate that.

Regarding the barbarians – The most likely reason why they didn't go for your city is that they barbarians do not target cities very early in the game unless "raging barbs" is enabled. This is unchanged from the original AI.

Note that the barbarians are not meant to be smart.

Regarding the indian longbows at their capital – maybe they could have survived an additional couple of turns by turtling with the longbows, but I really don't think that's important at all. Obviously they've already lost the war. Anything they do will be an act of desperation.

Regarding the caravels in the fort. That a legitimate problem which is worth fixing. I've also seen that AI do something like that in one of my games. Maybe I'll look into it some time.

Regarding the choice of defenders in combat – it cannot possibly be "unfair" or "a new AI cheat", because the rules are identical for human players and AI players. The AI doesn't get to choose which unit will defend any more than a human can.

In general, about the AI, I think the K-Mod AI is noticeably stronger than both the BBAI and the standard BtS AI – and that's my only claim about it. I'm not really sure what you're complaining about. Obviously the AI isn't as smart as a skilled human player. We all know that. So what is the point you're trying to make? Do you think the K-Mod AI is actually weaker than the old AI?

 

[Tigranes]

I am not going to make new mod. Some people shoot movies and some people watch movies and then they write reviews about it. I read about your claim from the very beginning -- all I am asking is to show one concrete example: BTS units do this while my units do that. One actual in-game example.

 

[noto2]

Ok. In Kmod the AI will sometimes DoW on me and invade with a stack of archers, just to pillage my tiles and fortify on a hill - essentially choking me as a human player would in MP. I've never seen the unmodded AI do that. As others have said, the major differences with Kmod, though, aren't tactical, they are strategic. Kmod AI will defend itself better because it will have more military units. It also deals with war much better. In Kmod, if you DoW and march towards the capital that is defended by 4 units and it takes you 6 turns to get there, by the time you get there the capital has 16 units, from whipping and reinforcements. Again, unmodded AI doesn't handle surprise attacks very well. Another example - the AI in Kmod expands very aggressively. I've seen Zara forward build his cities right up against my capital and then whip in city walls. I'm not sure if this was Karadoc's doing or if it's from BBAI but unmodded AI wasn't that cut-throat.

Basically, the AI in Kmod isn't as much of a pushover. In the unmodded game Monty and Shaka would rush me with a million swordsmen, which would kill me if I didn't prepare for it. If I did prepare for it I would just end up getting a bunch of level 3 axemen and a GG out of it. Ghandi would get 10 techs ahead of me but still only have 4 elephants defending his cities and I'd wipe him out, etc. In Kmod no one will suicide their entire army on you longbow/wall/hill city. Everyone will have a large standing army and everyone techs much more quickly as well.

 

[stolenrays]

@ Tigranes I was just trying to point out what I found to be an improvement from the KMOD's AI. Wasn't referencing anybody's comment.