k-mod has lots of resources on the map

Leathaface

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I started a pangea map and there is a fair amount of corn, pigs, silver around the place. In every direction for my next city, my city would be capital-city quality.

Is this normal? I never ever played k-mod before.
 
I've noticed this to, but I usually re roll if it's super easy.

even then though the AI is kinda owning and it ends up being pretty balanced.
 
This isn't really my experience, starts looked fairly typical. I know there was some consideration to start-balancing but I'm not sure if anything was changed. I changes were made to the big/medium and small map script but I don't think it had to do with resources, not sure about the other scripts.
 
I can totally support the Opening Post -- the not too big or small is literally littered with resources: I have never seen two Marbles next to each other for example. One island had like 8 Sugars :crazyeye: This needs to be toned down somehow!
 
I don't think anything I've changed could cause what is being described here. Not Too Big or Small uses the standard resource placement, and the standard resource placement rules have not been changed in K-Mod.

So, unless there's some kind of bizarre bug which is causing more resources to be placed, then the amount of resources should be very similar in K-Mod and the unmodded game.
 
Turns out you were right after all. Two random starts: K-mod, Large, not too Big or small (most resources 5), and vanila, Large, Big and small (most resources 6).

I am wondering what would K-mod do with Washington (third picture)? Would the Minimal food resources feature add at least one food resource for the capital like that? Notice it is already size 2 with all the flood plains and Oasis. Does Oasis count as a food resource?
 

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I am wondering what would K-mod do with Washington (third picture)? Would the Minimal food resources feature add at least one food resource for the capital like that? Notice it is already size 2 with all the flood plains and Oasis. Does Oasis count as a food resource?
That's an interesting example, because that particular case fails to meet food rules for both K-Mod and BtS. There are no food resources there at all. The floodplains and oasis are counted as extra food, but special features like that only lower the food bonus requirements. In order to meet the requirements there must be at least one actual food resource. -- So, it fails both versions of the food requirements.

However, by the look of things there's nowhere available to add any more bonuses. So the game would have tried to add more food, but failed due to there being no available plots – because food bonuses can't be placed on a forest or no a floodplain.

Apparently, the game will only attempt to remove features (such as forests) to place bonuses when certain conditions are met. I haven't looked into it in great detail, but apparently those conditions aren't met in this example, and so the food requirements simply cannot be met.

--

So, unless there's some kind of bizarre bug which is causing more resources to be placed, then the amount of resources should be very similar in K-Mod and the unmodded game.
I've been looking to see if I can improve the starting position choosing algorithm so that it is less likely to place players on islands with very limited resources; and while I was doing that I discovered that there actually is a bizarre bug which is causing more resources to be placed. Or rather, there are a bunch of different bugs in the starting position evaluation which basically cause the starting position evaluation to be wrong. ... Extremely wrong. And when this happens, the game may try to add a bunch of additional resources to starting positions which are evaluated to be weak.

I've added some logging to the part of the normalization process which adds these bonuses, and I've found that it's very common for several starting positions in each game to have this problem.

This is somewhat related to the Washington starting position which didn't have a food resource. Apparently, in almost every game there are a few starting positions which are deemed to be extremely low value no matter how many bonuses are added. The rules which sometimes prevent bonuses from being placed are the only reason why we don't end up with cities completely surrounded by bonuses.

These bugs that I'm talking about are actually not from K-Mod. They're in the original BtS rules; so I still think that the current version of K-Mod will probably have similar starts to the original rules... but it is possible that the changes I've made in K-Mod could cause these bugs to manifest in different ways. And so it is possible that K-Mod starting positions could have these erroneous bonuses added to them more (or less) often than in the unmodded game. It's hard to know for sure without testing it thoroughly.

This whole thing is pretty shocking really. I had previously assumed that the reason the game sometimes chose some poor positions was that it wanted to make sure players weren't too close, or something like that. I had assumed it was doing the best it could in a difficult situation... -- and it was trying to do that. I mean, it did have some factors in it to discourage the game from placing players too close, and so on - but they didn't work. Pretty much nothing in the evaluation worked, because there were some things right at the end which completely messed everything up. (sometimes, but not always.)

...

Anyway, I'll try to fix this stuff. I just hope that fixing it doesn't make starting positions become boring or something.
 
I was just wondering what is the status on this ^^^
 
The problem is fixed (on my own version), and I think the difference is pretty minor. There will probably be a slightly fewer cities with 14 clams, and slightly fewer cities completely surrounded by forest. (Forest is something that gets added to boost the value of the starting position; and so if the value is already good, then the forest might not be added.) But I don't think the changes will be a big deal.

I've actually been tinkering a bit with some other stuff related to starting positions. I'm seeing if I can make it a bit less likely to get an isolated start on an island with crumby resources. In fact, isolated starts in general might be bit more rare in the next version. Does that sound like a good thing? I'm not entirely sure.

Isolated starts are usually pretty bad in terms of balance - but sometimes the variety is nice... I guess it's just a matter of how often people want it to happen vs. how often it actually happens.
 
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