Katanas - Best sword ever or utter crap?

[Thorgalaeg]

Some carbon nanotubes, which were probably a side effect of the manufacturing process. And it's still not a proven explanation, AFAIK they haven't tested a large enough sample.

In any case, today's steel alloys are allegedly better (not by much, but better). It's only by the standards of the age that Damascus steel was so good.

It is so good for any standard. Most today's steel alloys used to make knifes are crap in comparison. Only our best tool steel alloys (like S30V, Cowry, VG10, D2...) are comparable to old Damascus steel.

 

[Aroddo]

i suspect that damascus steel is subject to a similiar type of hype than the katanas are. At least there is no scientific proof that damascus steel is superior to modern homogenous refined steel.

Believe it or not, but modern metalurgists usually improve their product rather than muck it up.
That being said, the requirements for combat viable swords are rather different than those for girders, gun barrels and Panzer, so it might well be damascus steel is superior for swords than most modern steel alloys ... which isn't a sign of quality but a design choice.

And about today's knive alloys being crap ... well, knives are supposed to be hard and sharp. They are not meant to bash heads in, so they can be forged hard but brittle. Kitchen cleavers should resemble sword steel a bit more than knive steel does, though.

 

[ArneHD]

So we should also refer to an actual source, whatever that may be, before stating that the core of the earth is hot? People can't say that they know that for a fact unless they cite "an actual source"? I don't get your point.

The point was that you fundamentally cannot trust the phrase "everyone knows", it's a case of a popular idea becoming so ingrained in our minds as a fact. Like the idea that the core of the earth is liquid. Only the outer core is liquid, the inner core is solid due to the enormous pressure. I'm sorry if I came across as hostile, it was simply that a lot of the claims in the thread appeared unsubstantiated, and as a regular QI watcher I am in a permanent state of dread for the klaxon.

 

[asbestos]

hokey weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.

 

[aelf]

I was really just surprised that quite a few people here find the OP's information to be something that is completely new to them. OT's geeky street cred has been reduced in my eyes.

 

[ArneHD]

Sure, there are such things as popular misconceptions. But I wasn't saying that something is true just because everyone thinks that it is. I think there's a misunderstanding somewhere.

You did preface your post with "Anyone who knows anything" which is pretty close. In spirit at least. While i don't really disagree (it seems logical enough), there have been other who claimed that the katana was simply a decorative sword (which Wikipedia at least states is wrong) and that this was the reason for it's poor comparison to European swords.

Anyway, this is really tangential, so I apologize if I have caused any offense and hope we can drop the matter.

 

[aelf]

I meant that more in the sense that I think the facts that I went on to mention are common knowledge for people who have ever read anything credible about the katana, so I thought it shouldn't be a new piece of information amongst a bunch of geeks in the internet.

 

[Aroddo]

The point was that you fundamentally cannot trust the phrase "everyone knows", it's a case of a popular idea becoming so ingrained in our minds as a fact. Like the idea that the core of the earth is liquid. Only the outer core is liquid, the inner core is solid due to the enormous pressure. I'm sorry if I came across as hostile, it was simply that a lot of the claims in the thread appeared unsubstantiated, and as a regular QI watcher I am in a permanent state of dread for the klaxon.

I can provide some historical, scientific and experimental sources to make you feel more at ease.

Historical depiction of a Samurai. Notice the saw in his hands.

Several descriptions of sword tests:
http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html

A dissertation about the properties of sword steel (german, sorry):
http://www.archaeologie-online.de/m...s-talisman-damastsalat-und-nanodraht/seite-1/

A doctoral thesis about early medieval steel in europe and asia (german again, sorry, but germans dig steel): http://www.schwertbruecken.de/pdf/staehle.pdf

Extensive book about properties of historic weapon grade steel: The knight and the blast furnace by Allan R. Williams

For some reason the english wikipedia is totally void of anything informative about the katana which might shine a blemish on it's awesomeness.

I meant that more in the sense that I think the facts that I went on to mention are common knowledge for people who have ever read anything credible about the katana, so I thought it shouldn't be a new piece of information amongst a bunch of geeks in the internet.

To be honest, I really doubt that any literature focussing on Samurai and Katanas will include a paragraph that states how bad Katanas were in comparison to, say, a roman gladius or the 300BC celtic Spatha.

 

[classical_hero]

Does it really matter?

 

[aelf]

To be honest, I really doubt that any literature focussing on Samurai and Katanas will include a paragraph that states how bad Katanas were in comparison to, say, a roman gladius or the 300BC celtic Spatha.

Well, I'd think that lots of modern sources would at least mention the role of the katana in combat, that it was meant to be used against opponents wearing at most light armor or something. So people who read them at least wouldn't expect the katana to be able to cut through metal as a matter of course.

 

[Benefactor]

Does it really matter?

No, but then neither do most things .

 

[Thorgalaeg]

i suspect that damascus steel is subject to a similiar type of hype than the katanas are. At least there is no scientific proof that damascus steel is superior to modern homogenous refined steel.

Believe it or not, but modern metalurgists usually improve their product rather than muck it up.
That being said, the requirements for combat viable swords are rather different than those for girders, gun barrels and Panzer, so it might well be damascus steel is superior for swords than most modern steel alloys ... which isn't a sign of quality but a design choice.

And about today's knive alloys being crap ... well, knives are supposed to be hard and sharp. They are not meant to bash heads in, so they can be forged hard but brittle. Kitchen cleavers should resemble sword steel a bit more than knive steel does, though.

Sure there so many steels as uses but there is also this concept of modern things being better than older ones because it is modern, which is totally false specially in metallurgy. In fact most modern knives we use and see daily like most kitchen ones (VG10 kitchen knives from Japan are wonderful though) are made of common stainless steel which is crap in toughness and hardness. Then we have the typical much more expensive pro knife made with some of the "super-alloys" i wrote in my previous post which are in another league.

While we have not real Damascus steel to compare due to lack of specimens beyond national museums we know how to produce Wootz steel which is known to be the raw material they used to produce Damascus steel. Wootz steel characteristics are almost there with best quality blade steel we have today and it is a very good steel even for today standards. So having in mind that Damascus steel was an enhancement of Wootz steel it surely had no much to envy of modern best blade steels.

 

[Aroddo]

Damascus certainly looks awesome.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Yep, it does. So that, while the one in your pic is surely genuine, many high-end models from current knives makers which are sold as "Damascus steel" are indeed modern high alloy knives covered with a layer of laminated steel welded together to get something similar to the awesome patterns we see in real D-S.

 

[ArneHD]

Spoiler :

I can provide some historical, scientific and experimental sources to make you feel more at ease.

Historical depiction of a Samurai. Notice the saw in his hands.

Several descriptions of sword tests:
http://www.shinkendo.com/kabuto.html

A dissertation about the properties of sword steel (german, sorry):
http://www.archaeologie-online.de/m...s-talisman-damastsalat-und-nanodraht/seite-1/

A doctoral thesis about early medieval steel in europe and asia (german again, sorry, but germans dig steel): http://www.schwertbruecken.de/pdf/staehle.pdf

Extensive book about properties of historic weapon grade steel: The knight and the blast furnace by Allan R. Williams

For some reason the english wikipedia is totally void of anything informative about the katana which might shine a blemish on it's awesomeness.


To be honest, I really doubt that any literature focussing on Samurai and Katanas will include a paragraph that states how bad Katanas were in comparison to, say, a roman gladius or the 300BC celtic Spatha

.

Thanks. That did actually put me somewhat more at ease.