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Kazakhstan Embassy
- Thread starter General_W
- Start date
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
no 
we never did.
Does everyone support Memphus' proposal? I was mulling it over - then it got lost in the crazyness of work around here.
If there are no objections or alternate ideas, I'll start drafting a response here asap.
we never did. Does everyone support Memphus' proposal? I was mulling it over - then it got lost in the crazyness of work around here.
If there are no objections or alternate ideas, I'll start drafting a response here asap.
Krill
Deity
Well, I'm OK with trading MC for Maths+Masonry+Archery, but I reckon we'd more likely have to negotiate of brass tacks with whatever teams we try to trade with. I leave that to hands more capable than my own...
On that note, we probably should start to push on the tech trades now; it's just gone t80, so we have 10 turns until we can semi-safely trade away MC.
On that note, we probably should start to push on the tech trades now; it's just gone t80, so we have 10 turns until we can semi-safely trade away MC.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Ok – here’s my proposal:
Thoughts?
(Note that I changed it to turn 100 to line up with the proposal we sent to the Cavs)
Namaste Donsig,
The Ninjas salute the Great Nation of Kazakhstan.
We apologize for our delay in responding to your last note. General_W, who does not speak about himself in the third-person, got really busy with some mysterious activities that have made him scarce around the Halls of Ninjas. Rest assured, General_W has launched an investigation into these suspicious activities and will hold those responsible accountable for any wrongdoing.
You asked what we wanted for Metal Casting, and your offer (as you yourselves indicated) was a bit light… but not wholly off the mark.
We’d like to offer you Metal Casting (672) for Math, Masonry, and Archery (581
This is obviously still lopsided in your favor, and a very fair trade, we believe.
We recognize you may not have these techs yet – so we’d like to make an agreement with you to have these techs ready to go on turn 100*, and we’ll make the swap all-at-once then.
*or you can have Metal Casting sooner, if you sign a formal document swearing to not build the Colossus and not trade Metal Casting to any other nation until after turn 100.
What do you think?
Best,
General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA
Working with Metal
Counting the stones and arrows
Glorious Trading
Thoughts?
(Note that I changed it to turn 100 to line up with the proposal we sent to the Cavs)
Krill
Deity
I think we might have to sell it before then. t90 is possibly pushing the limits of safety (need a 30hpt city and copper toget it, which Cav might have already, definately will if they go into OR). t95 means they need 55 hpt. We should probably trade it around this time (and yes, this affects Cavs as well, need to do something about that).
mostly-harmless
Prince
On the other hand if we offer T90 to them, they will assume that we are in the clear to have it safely done by that turn.
mh
mh
IamJohn
(was)?
My question is how much they can rush the wonder, can they do the Colossus what we did with the Oracle? I'm sure they would be quite useful for them propaganda-wise to be able to take this from us, not to mention potentially crippling game-wise for us.
It's a nice idea, but I really don't think it's worth risk unless we can be positive they can't get it. We are already really close to the edge on how we're going to win this game and pushing things like this wonder just doesn't seem like a good idea.
It's a nice idea, but I really don't think it's worth risk unless we can be positive they can't get it. We are already really close to the edge on how we're going to win this game and pushing things like this wonder just doesn't seem like a good idea.
Krill
Deity
Doesn't matter: Kaz can get MC by t90 if they research it instead of CS. Then they trade it and we have no edge anymore and we are totally screwed.
At the very least talking with them about trading it to them does one of two things: either they don't research MC and then we can decide later on that we don't want to risk it if new infomation comes up and turn down the trade, or they talk to us about trading it and research MC anyway in which case nothing we can do about it.
The only way to make the Collosus build safe is to get it in IS next. The cost of this is that we have about a 25% chance of getting a GM.
If we have to lose one of the Collosus and Pyramids, lose the Collosus. In our position rep is much more useful that the Collosus.
At the very least talking with them about trading it to them does one of two things: either they don't research MC and then we can decide later on that we don't want to risk it if new infomation comes up and turn down the trade, or they talk to us about trading it and research MC anyway in which case nothing we can do about it.
The only way to make the Collosus build safe is to get it in IS next. The cost of this is that we have about a 25% chance of getting a GM.
If we have to lose one of the Collosus and Pyramids, lose the Collosus. In our position rep is much more useful that the Collosus.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Let it go at turn 100?
Or modify to turn 90?
Looks like the consensus leans towards turn 90?
Or modify to turn 90?
Looks like the consensus leans towards turn 90?
Krill
Deity
What if you stated that we could negotiate over the turn the trade would take place?
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
After thinking about it some more, I think offering the trade on turn 90 is our best bet. As has been noted above - they can get it by then on their own, if they want anyway... and letting them think we'll have it before turn 90 will discourage them from racing us for it.
Getting Metal Casting 10 turns sooner also makes the trade more appealing and more likely to be agreed to.
Here's version 2:
I'd like to send this off today.
Any objections?
Getting Metal Casting 10 turns sooner also makes the trade more appealing and more likely to be agreed to.
Here's version 2:
Namaste Donsig,
The Ninjas salute the Great Nation of Kazakhstan.
We apologize for our delay in responding to your last note. General_W, who does not speak about himself in the third-person, got really busy with some mysterious activities that have made him scarce around the Halls of Ninjas. Rest assured, General_W has launched an investigation into these suspicious activities and will hold those responsible accountable for any wrongdoing.
You asked what we wanted for Metal Casting, and your offer (as you yourselves indicated) was a bit light… but not wholly off the mark.
We’d like to offer you Metal Casting (672
This is obviously still lopsided in your favor, and a very fair trade, we believe.
We recognize you may not have these techs yet – so we’d like to make an agreement with you to have these techs ready to go on turn 90*, and we’ll make the swap all-at-once then.
*or you can have Metal Casting sooner, if you sign a formal document swearing to not build the Colossus and not trade Metal Casting to any other nation until after turn 100.
What do you think?
Best,
General_W, Daimyo of State, SANCTA
Working with Metal
Counting the stones and arrows
Glorious Trading
I'd like to send this off today.
Any objections?
Krill
Deity
Do we want a no trade clause on this trade?
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
You think we don't? 
Krill
Deity
Well, I think we either want one that says they can't trade MC at all, or we try to use it as a bargaining chip to try and gain more stuff (ie tech). Asking for a no trade clause is more straight forward. Telling them they can trade it after t100 and asking for very little is the worst parts of both.
Plus the way it is phrased makes it sound like we would trade it earlier than t90 which we really shouldn't risk, so at the very least the phrasing ought to be changed.
--
As far as I can tell Ronnie is right, in that even if we try to ochestrate two tech trades with Cav and Kaz at the same time (which is doubtful) they can always stiff us. So either we accept that getting only one deal is good enough, or we are greedy and try to get everything off one team and tell them they can sell it to whoever they want.
The downside of letting them sell it is that they could just gift it to Saturn (which they can do anyway...). We do want CoL off Saturn, but other than that MC is also useful as a gift to get them on our side.
I can see advantages to both sides. If this were just a normal pitboss game I'd be alot more upfront and send off new emails to both Kaz and Cav (basically identical emails) and say what we want (not even sure what we want anymore? Everything other than monarchy it seems).
Problem is that looking at the tech situation, Kaz and Cav can't actually trade MC for anything, and have at least worked out a few tech deals, so they are probably only interesting in it to save some beakers and whoring it around so we can't trade it. MS are researching god knows what and just got monarchy, and so are down maths, alpha and CoL and need to earn them off Cav and Kaz. Saturn have been researching something for 10 turns, and we probably aren't going to meet them until around turn 90 anyway.
So personally, I think we need to very shortly try and hammer out two decent trades, either one good enough on it's own to be worth taking if the other falls through. Get down to brass tacks and stop delaying; it's been useful to get us through the past 20 turns with limited diplomatic understanding but we need to get the job done.
Plus the way it is phrased makes it sound like we would trade it earlier than t90 which we really shouldn't risk, so at the very least the phrasing ought to be changed.
--
As far as I can tell Ronnie is right, in that even if we try to ochestrate two tech trades with Cav and Kaz at the same time (which is doubtful) they can always stiff us. So either we accept that getting only one deal is good enough, or we are greedy and try to get everything off one team and tell them they can sell it to whoever they want.
The downside of letting them sell it is that they could just gift it to Saturn (which they can do anyway...). We do want CoL off Saturn, but other than that MC is also useful as a gift to get them on our side.
I can see advantages to both sides. If this were just a normal pitboss game I'd be alot more upfront and send off new emails to both Kaz and Cav (basically identical emails) and say what we want (not even sure what we want anymore? Everything other than monarchy it seems).
Problem is that looking at the tech situation, Kaz and Cav can't actually trade MC for anything, and have at least worked out a few tech deals, so they are probably only interesting in it to save some beakers and whoring it around so we can't trade it. MS are researching god knows what and just got monarchy, and so are down maths, alpha and CoL and need to earn them off Cav and Kaz. Saturn have been researching something for 10 turns, and we probably aren't going to meet them until around turn 90 anyway.
So personally, I think we need to very shortly try and hammer out two decent trades, either one good enough on it's own to be worth taking if the other falls through. Get down to brass tacks and stop delaying; it's been useful to get us through the past 20 turns with limited diplomatic understanding but we need to get the job done.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I think it's very important that we accept that getting any trade is a big win for our team.Krill said:
"Greedy", when you're on the outside of a 3v1 alliance, is just another word for "suicidal."
I don't think asking for a permanent ban on trading Metal Casting is realistic.
But beyond that, I think it's actually to our advantage to have one of them with Metal Casting, but a time limit on it. It will prevent anyone else from researching it. MC is an important tech that will get researched by the alliance, and soon. If we can delay its spread by tying it up... so much the better. If they just plain don't have it or can't trade it - someone else will study it... and probably sooner rather than later.
100% But I think the above proposal is "decent" and should be sent asap. If we got both, that'd be amazing and a huge win for us.
Frankly - I'm not sure they'd do a deal with us even if there was NO trade limit on Metal Casting. I'd say there's about 50% odds we're just being stalled anyway. But it doesn't hurt to try, and if we look like we're willing to negotiate we might make them uncertain and slow down their plans a bit.
in conclusion - I'd really like to send this letter.
I'm not sure if you're objecting to it or not?
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