Discussion in 'Team SANCTA' started by General_W, Feb 12, 2009.
What do we want from Kaz again?
Well, it's obvious the cities are off the table.
What seems to be on the table is putting Cav in a defensive position. The way I see it they are the only team that stands in our way to victory (if that). However, if we can change the direction of alliance towards our side (3 v 2) don't we come out further ahead?
If Kaz won't play to our game then at some point that discussion with Cavscout could come in handy when talking to Cav about their near back stab.
I don't see Kaz becoming our allies unless they're getting someone major out of it. Either they already think the balance of power has shifted towards us, or they are playing mind games with us.
I kind of want an alliance, but I don't really see a reason to give up TKY and Zero. I'd be ok with an alliance where we both actively war on Cav and Kaz keeps any cities that either of us take from Cav. We still have land to settle...
And remember that if they do see us becoming too powerful they'll decide to do the same thing they theoretically did to Cav, knife us in the back when we become too powerful if we don't do it to them first.
Maybe it's simply a ruse on Kaz' and Cavs behalf. I don't know but all I'm saying is these comments should be kept for posterity and used if necessary.
cav scout says (18:35):
for us to take the huge step of turning on CAV would take TKY and Zero
which would allow us to get at them
Memphus says (18:36):
so to understand if we gifted TKY and Zero you would enter an alliance with us, and go attack cav?
cav scout says (18:37):
cav scout says (18:38):
if we are going to do a 180 we would want to hit them hard before they can react to the shift in the geopolitical situation
Memphus says (18:41):
so I guess from Sancta's view where is the advantage for us?
You attack Cav and Not Us?
cav scout says (18:42):
well we think its a little larger then that in terms of scope
the dynamics of the game would be vastly different
Memphus says (18:42):
how so? unless you mean tech wise?
cav scout says (18:43):
well it seems that either you or CAV will be eliminated first
cav scout says (18:44):
well if it was SANCTA/Saturn/Kaz and we took the fight to CAV...
cav scout says (18:52):
well we would end our relationship with CAV at a time that they would consider a deal breaking
cav scout says (18:53):
we would be crossing the rubicon for sure
cav scout says (18:53):
and we would want certain guarantees like tech sharing etc
we are in a comfortable relationship with CAV right now to be clear
cav scout says (18:54):
we just are looking far into the future
Memphus says (18:54):
that makes sense.
cav scout says (18:54):
and see them running away with the game
cav scout says (18:56):
you have to admit, this would make the MTDG more interesting
Memphus says (18:56):
well it has always been interesting for us , but i can see how this make make your teams game more fun
cav scout says (18:57):
oh but above the current interest level just think of all the CAV guys screaming bloody murder lol
Memphus says (18:57):
oh true yeah they would flip....which i would enjoy.
I have no doubt that Kaz' only chance is to play spoiler and hope to back door their way into a victory. The only way it can be accomplished is continually backstabbing the leader.
It's also why ATM's offer seems fair. If they take Cav land then we let them take the spoils (should be negotiated though since we may be able to get more than nothing from this). Personally, I'm not sure that helps them much in the long run since they'll have enormous problems holding a front and building back up if that's accomplished.
IIRC, we haven't even hit stride with our traits and UU.
Does not compute. If Kaz think we are the most powerful team now and they are joining us, they won't backstab if we are too powerful, they'll backstab if they think they can get something out of it, which is tantamount to this being psychological warfare, joining us with Cavs knowledge to lure us down a path where we can get ambushed by the trio.
Leaning towards Whomps opinion...blackmail them.
Same offer we gave them last time. I like that. Especially as after this turn we show our hand to Kaz.
Not even close, and that is the scary thing...
It's already been said ofc...no cities-no way-no how....
We are in the drivers seat, and just starting to roll onto the throttle. They ain't seen nothin' yet!!!
I don't think it's wise to threaten to tell Cav about Kaz's attempted allegience switch. If we do, Kaz will never again take a chance to talk to us about switching to our side and surely that's a door we should never close.
I don't think any deal is possible that we and Kaz will be happy with so I reckon the best response is to say that handing over 2 cities is a deal breaker. Ask if they would consider any deal that doesn't involve handing over any cities and assuming we still can't find an agreeable deal (which seems likely), politely decline their alliance proposal and make it sound like we are going to try and peacefully build our way ahead of Cav while actually building a big army to destroy Kaz.
That's assuming we want to give the impression we're peacfully building, which maybe we don't (for fear of Kaz invading us). But I think it helps more than it hurts.
Well the turn was played so Kaz will have to see, that them "assuring" us lib isn't a very strong point as we are now 2 turns away from it...
cav scout is slightly pissed we ended turn.
we cede them 2 cities AND all of Cav's cities? I don't think so.
I agree with ATM. Especially when the biggest thing they're saving us tech wise is Saturn's GS for Philo and maybe the Lib bulb. They want us to give them two cities in exchange for wiping out a foe and 2 GP. Two cities that, once given away, will never return to us without a really long and bloody war. Oh, and if this is a devilish plan being done with Cav's approval, then we've just handed those two teams the game by signing this deal.
Those 2 GPs are valuable, but prime city locations and chokepoints are invaluable. If we didn't give up TKY/Zero/Zhu Cha, then I'd say go for it; turning over captured cities is fine, and even all city gold (I assume we'd have a don't-pillage-the-non-metals-and-ivory clause; tech sharing negates the importance of who gets the gold, though). Of course, this plan leaves Kaz territory split in two. Them's the breaks if they want to expand through the sword, because it sure ain't happening through SANCTA.
And I really can't give up a perfect drafting city in a front-line location to a Diplomacy-style backstabber. Do we even have another city than can draft every single turn with the Globe? Unless we're willing to stack draft unhappiness in other cities (with high offensive WW likely, this is a preferred situation), we'll still need 20 non-TKY cities drafting to get the maximum 3 units/turn.
Giving Kaz Cav's lands helps Kaz. Fine.
Giving Kaz TKY and Zero hurts SANCTA. Not Fine.
As has been said, there is no way we're giving Kaz the cities we just spent 20 odd turns defending from them.
And this is why the turn was played...because there is no point stallign the game when the entire team thinks it is unacceptable to give away those cities (which quite frankly it is).
IMO our rebuttle to Kaz is the deal works if we keep our cities. If not, then we are sorry you will be the first team our of this game.
This is what we need to say to Kaz. They are obsessing over TKY and those cities like Imperio was obsessing over cape town in the poly game, and it's killing them.
If they choose to attack us all the better, since it'll slow down their tech, if they decide to tech, then we'll hopefully kill them once we're ready.
Quick Chat with Cav Scout:
Afternoon. Are the messengers still on thier way?
i chatted with Krill the other day and gave him the basic outline of what we were thinking
we are holding the game up now
waiting for us to respond to that?
yeah, he said that was enough for you guys to have a discussion
CAV is getting worried I think, the less advanced warning they get the better
what have you todl them for the time being?
just they we were having some heated internal debates about the future of our alliance
since they basically lied about helping us in war
they gifted gold for your axe==>maces upgrade?
well lets just say we feel taken advantage of
or were they supposed to flank us at TKY?
(we were surprised that never came btw)
so they gave some gold, you guys did heavy lifting, while they built markets and doubled thier city count?
yeah that might jade me a little too...
I would love to see Oyzar crap his pants when his go after him
well technically nothing is stopping you now
when we rather
we could open our borders and even build a road there for you...
thier first city is just SWest of TKY!
well we would only feel comfortable if we had a solid land connection to any cities we gain to the west
what if we could provide that without gifting TKY and Zero?
well the whole thing for us hinges on those cities
which i just don't get...
you said you get cav land, we get all other land
which would technically include MS on the other end of the world, so how these 2 cities is so important I am unsure
we have people that just want to make a fortress Kaz and let you and CAV go at it
i think we should expand west
and having continguous territory is a no brainer
well that is what I am saying...all the land is gone in the west now, Cav has it
and as for the straight line of cities, that i agree too
but you don't need TKY or Zero for that
well we wouldnt want our lands divided
and our team can't give up either city.
so if there is no middle ground, it looks like fortress Kaz.
that said if you really want to see us go at with Cav we can sign something more lucrative?
well the only way i was able to get support to attack
CAV was that we would switch sides
so i guess you will be delcaring on us in what 7-8 turns now when the Cease Fire Ends officially?
nah we dont want to just loose again
you'll be expecting us, whearas CAV would be ripe for the taking
yup they have little defence..
we woudl steam them roll them right now, but need our units in the core incase you guys come back knocking.
well we can build our cheap uni's now, which is what the turtle faction wants
Well we are open to anything other than those 2 cities i would say...
meaning tech trades, heck we would even considering gifting you guys tech if you hit cav
ok, i will let my team know
also let us know if you want to renew the NAP when it expires...if not each turn could get pretty dicey.
ok, that might be a good idea
talk to you later
they want to have a land connection to their cities... and are willing to grant us all the non-cav land... but take away OUR land connection to those lands?
Yeah. Typical Kaz thinking, really.
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