Kazakhstan Embassy
- Thread starter General_W
- Start date
Well, it's obvious the cities are off the table.
What seems to be on the table is putting Cav in a defensive position. The way I see it they are the only team that stands in our way to victory (if that). However, if we can change the direction of alliance towards our side (3 v 2) don't we come out further ahead?
If Kaz won't play to our game then at some point that discussion with Cavscout could come in handy when talking to Cav about their near back stab.
What seems to be on the table is putting Cav in a defensive position. The way I see it they are the only team that stands in our way to victory (if that). However, if we can change the direction of alliance towards our side (3 v 2) don't we come out further ahead?
If Kaz won't play to our game then at some point that discussion with Cavscout could come in handy when talking to Cav about their near back stab.
azzaman333
meh
I don't see Kaz becoming our allies unless they're getting someone major out of it. Either they already think the balance of power has shifted towards us, or they are playing mind games with us.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
I kind of want an alliance, but I don't really see a reason to give up TKY and Zero. I'd be ok with an alliance where we both actively war on Cav and Kaz keeps any cities that either of us take from Cav. We still have land to settle...
IamJohn
(was)?
And remember that if they do see us becoming too powerful they'll decide to do the same thing they theoretically did to Cav, knife us in the back when we become too powerful if we don't do it to them first.
Maybe it's simply a ruse on Kaz' and Cavs behalf. I don't know but all I'm saying is these comments should be kept for posterity and used if necessary.
I have no doubt that Kaz' only chance is to play spoiler and hope to back door their way into a victory. The only way it can be accomplished is continually backstabbing the leader.
It's also why ATM's offer seems fair. If they take Cav land then we let them take the spoils (should be negotiated though since we may be able to get more than nothing from this). Personally, I'm not sure that helps them much in the long run since they'll have enormous problems holding a front and building back up if that's accomplished.
IIRC, we haven't even hit stride with our traits and UU.
Spoiler :
I have no doubt that Kaz' only chance is to play spoiler and hope to back door their way into a victory. The only way it can be accomplished is continually backstabbing the leader.
It's also why ATM's offer seems fair. If they take Cav land then we let them take the spoils (should be negotiated though since we may be able to get more than nothing from this). Personally, I'm not sure that helps them much in the long run since they'll have enormous problems holding a front and building back up if that's accomplished.
IIRC, we haven't even hit stride with our traits and UU.
Krill
Deity
Does not compute. If Kaz think we are the most powerful team now and they are joining us, they won't backstab if we are too powerful, they'll backstab if they think they can get something out of it, which is tantamount to this being psychological warfare, joining us with Cavs knowledge to lure us down a path where we can get ambushed by the trio.
Leaning towards Whomps opinion...blackmail them.
Krill
Deity
Whomp said:
Same offer we gave them last time. I like that. Especially as after this turn we show our hand to Kaz.
Not even close, and that is the scary thing...
Ronnie1
Deity
It's already been said ofc...no cities-no way-no how....
We are in the drivers seat, and just starting to roll onto the throttle. They ain't seen nothin' yet!!!
We are in the drivers seat, and just starting to roll onto the throttle. They ain't seen nothin' yet!!!
shadyforce
Chieftain
I don't think it's wise to threaten to tell Cav about Kaz's attempted allegience switch. If we do, Kaz will never again take a chance to talk to us about switching to our side and surely that's a door we should never close.
I don't think any deal is possible that we and Kaz will be happy with so I reckon the best response is to say that handing over 2 cities is a deal breaker. Ask if they would consider any deal that doesn't involve handing over any cities and assuming we still can't find an agreeable deal (which seems likely), politely decline their alliance proposal and make it sound like we are going to try and peacefully build our way ahead of Cav while actually building a big army to destroy Kaz.
That's assuming we want to give the impression we're peacfully building, which maybe we don't (for fear of Kaz invading us). But I think it helps more than it hurts.
I don't think any deal is possible that we and Kaz will be happy with so I reckon the best response is to say that handing over 2 cities is a deal breaker. Ask if they would consider any deal that doesn't involve handing over any cities and assuming we still can't find an agreeable deal (which seems likely), politely decline their alliance proposal and make it sound like we are going to try and peacefully build our way ahead of Cav while actually building a big army to destroy Kaz.
That's assuming we want to give the impression we're peacfully building, which maybe we don't (for fear of Kaz invading us). But I think it helps more than it hurts.
so Kaz will have to see, that them "assuring" us lib isn't a very strong point as we are now 2 turns away from it...
Krill
Deity
cav scout is slightly pissed we ended turn.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
we cede them 2 cities AND all of Cav's cities? I don't think so.
Mojoqmeyvam
Warlord
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2009
- Messages
- 129
I agree with ATM. Especially when the biggest thing they're saving us tech wise is Saturn's GS for Philo and maybe the Lib bulb. They want us to give them two cities in exchange for wiping out a foe and 2 GP. Two cities that, once given away, will never return to us without a really long and bloody war. Oh, and if this is a devilish plan being done with Cav's approval, then we've just handed those two teams the game by signing this deal.
Those 2 GPs are valuable, but prime city locations and chokepoints are invaluable. If we didn't give up TKY/Zero/Zhu Cha, then I'd say go for it; turning over captured cities is fine, and even all city gold (I assume we'd have a don't-pillage-the-non-metals-and-ivory clause; tech sharing negates the importance of who gets the gold, though). Of course, this plan leaves Kaz territory split in two. Them's the breaks if they want to expand through the sword, because it sure ain't happening through SANCTA.
And I really can't give up a perfect drafting city in a front-line location to a Diplomacy-style backstabber. Do we even have another city than can draft every single turn with the Globe? Unless we're willing to stack draft unhappiness in other cities (with high offensive WW likely, this is a preferred situation), we'll still need 20 non-TKY cities drafting to get the maximum 3 units/turn.
Giving Kaz Cav's lands helps Kaz. Fine.
Giving Kaz TKY and Zero hurts SANCTA. Not Fine.
Those 2 GPs are valuable, but prime city locations and chokepoints are invaluable. If we didn't give up TKY/Zero/Zhu Cha, then I'd say go for it; turning over captured cities is fine, and even all city gold (I assume we'd have a don't-pillage-the-non-metals-and-ivory clause; tech sharing negates the importance of who gets the gold, though). Of course, this plan leaves Kaz territory split in two. Them's the breaks if they want to expand through the sword, because it sure ain't happening through SANCTA.
And I really can't give up a perfect drafting city in a front-line location to a Diplomacy-style backstabber. Do we even have another city than can draft every single turn with the Globe? Unless we're willing to stack draft unhappiness in other cities (with high offensive WW likely, this is a preferred situation), we'll still need 20 non-TKY cities drafting to get the maximum 3 units/turn.
Giving Kaz Cav's lands helps Kaz. Fine.
Giving Kaz TKY and Zero hurts SANCTA. Not Fine.
azzaman333
meh
As has been said, there is no way we're giving Kaz the cities we just spent 20 odd turns defending from them.
And this is why the turn was played...because there is no point stallign the game when the entire team thinks it is unacceptable to give away those cities (which quite frankly it is).
IMO our rebuttle to Kaz is the deal works if we keep our cities. If not, then we are sorry you will be the first team our of this game.
IamJohn
(was)?
This is what we need to say to Kaz. They are obsessing over TKY and those cities like Imperio was obsessing over cape town in the poly game, and it's killing them.
If they choose to attack us all the better, since it'll slow down their tech, if they decide to tech, then we'll hopefully kill them once we're ready.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
they want to have a land connection to their cities... and are willing to grant us all the non-cav land... but take away OUR land connection to those lands?
Krill
Deity
Yeah. Typical Kaz thinking, really.
