Keshik Domination - Demonstration

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, the deity training has gone sour, so I decided to take a break from the AI having 4 cities before 2000 BC and 10 before 1000 BC, with culture borders touching my capitol before I can finish my 1st settler. So, I dropped down to immortal. I was starting to wonder if I could win ANYTHING, but it turns out deity is just rigged . Deity demonstration from ME will have to come later, but for now I present:

TMIT's KESHIK TORNADO: Immortal Domination!

I've long asserted the Keshik is a top UU, but a lot of people don't see it, and also generally curse horse archers. This game is on normal speed, which works against early warfare. I'm doing it anyway. Hopefully, the screenshots and a little of my thought process for where to attack first and why will help people who are unfamiliar with the dreaded horse archer charge.

I didn't take screenshots of the opening because I didn't know I'd be doing this right away. Basically, my starting resources in my BFC were a plains cow and a riverside bananna . Horses were pretty far away, through a jungle belt, but I got to them before my neighbor could. As usual, the priority is working the special tiles and blocking. CRE aids expansion (I'm Kublai for this one). I decide to tech out the worker techs (minus mysticism), pottery, BW, and then go HBR. Then, I start banking gold. I'll be needing some reserve gold, as you'll see:

Horse archers and their UU's must be used tactically. The immediate border city had 4 hill archers, but by running a scout and a sentry chariot (the latter moved on to other AIs after this) through Izzy's territory, we could see that her capitol and the jewish holy city to the NW were lightly defended. These are *core* cities, and will comprise much of her production. Taking them at the start of the war drastically cuts the amount of units she can apply those immortal production bonuses to create. Keshiks in particular are GREAT here, due to the terrain move we can hit Madrid ultrafast - and fortunately no jumbos to contend with just yet!

Madrid is easily taken:

Lost 1 unit here, another withdrew.

I grab some land, taking a CEASE FIRE (no 10 turn treaty) after these cities are mine:

At this point, I know the game's going my way, so I automate the whipping back home. I have more keshiks to the east, while the original invasion force gets another easy city:

The city just east of that one has a spear and several melee, so I don't want to go after it yet. I capture the easy one and double back to group up with the invasion force to the south, which I use to finally take down that quad archer city.

With 2 cities left, Izzy vassals to Zara, which is putrid considering they are ZEALOTS IN DIFFERENT RELIGIONS BUT STILL PLEASED!!! I had to fend off a few of Zara's units but he never sent anything serious my way. Just killed a sword, a HA, a chariot, and not much else. That was enough for about 15 gold from him once he was willing to talk to me.

Eventually, izzy goes down but I start dancing with strike. Only the fact that I'd cottaged my capitol saved me (well, that and I banked gold to last). I BOUGHT alphabet off pacal for ~360 gold, allowing me to quickly recover from the spanish conquests:

Begging for gold off zara and pacal bought me enough time to get currency, built wealth to get CoL, whipped courthouses. Espionage focus goes on pacal. From there, it's just some more keshik production, along with some spies. I prep a force against him:

But there's a problem with this particular war:

Hmm. That's some tech hole. This is why I focused EP on Pacal. Elephants (which he had) are bad enough, but pikes behind CHICHEN ITZA cities with the statue of zeus would wreck my keshik force easily. He also gets knights but those aren't as serious. Even with the tech hole, mounted warfare prevails:

Those are some NICE cities, including the 25 gpt hindu shrine! How did I manage so much damage that quickly? Spies. With a combination of flanking II and combat line keshiks, Pacal's forces were cut down. Once again, avoided fighting anything hard initially and just CRUSHED the opponent's production capacity before he could react. Pacal has a low unitprob too so even though he was advanced he went down easily.

If you paid very close attention to the tech screen, you'll have noticed pacal already had astronomy and settled off somewhere. I took every continental city he had but didn't capitulate him. Why? Well...I didn't have feudalism . Zara and Ragnar were at war during this time (he even bribed pacal in just before I went after pacal, but since pacal is a wuss he didn't move any troops of substance), ultimately meaning Zara couldn't repeat the crap he pulled earlier. Zara also brought peter into the war by making him his voluntary vassal. Ragnar would eventually capitulate, but I was faster so avoided trouble. I get a good take from the mayans:

He would not accept this deal, but as soon as I removed poly he did!

Mayan lands and some stats just after taking him down with keshiks:

Despite the horrid tech deficit, we're just ahead in K/D, with the important point that cutting the AI production presents far less units than otherwise would appear. However, by this point I'm at the end of the Keshik rope. Zara beats ragnar into capitulation, and has oromos and knights running everywhere. I'm bleeding gold.

The recover period worked as follows:

- Build wealth in all cities that were producing keshiks
- Newer cities get a granary, courthouse, some cases a forge, barracks, and ger, then build wealth.
- Shrine cities (izzy had build ToA so I shrined her religion, and of course pacal's) get markets too.
- Tech machinery----> guilds/gunpowder, trade with pacal for philosophy and something else just before he switches out of hinduism and starts to HATE me, tech to military tradition
- Burn 3 great people on a dual golden age, run theocracy, representation (pacal had the mids after all), nationhood, slavery, default for economic tech
- Turn slider off after MT, beg/extort some gold, upgrade keshiks
- Continue building/whipping cuirassers
- Focus EP on Zara

It took some time to do this. I'd cottaged a lot of my land just to pay the bills, but they were best in the green jungle area of course. I had plenty of workers since I'd captured them.

After that prep, it's time for the game ending war: Inca looks on as I take on Ethiopia, Russia, and the Vikings by myself. Ragnar has minor medieval forces and a crippled empire. Russia never does anything. Zara, however, has a lot of oromos, grenadiers, and cuirassers of his own. Plan is the same as before: mounted and spies. It's later in the game now so there are less forests, so losing the terrain move bonus hurts less. More importantly, cuirassers are immune to first strikes. Screw you, oromos!

I open the war on two fronts:

This one as well as some forces to immediate take Zara's cities that my empire surrounds. I amass a ton of WW killing Zara's primary stack (with losses) and taking his cities, but the spies kept the attrition reasonable. I take all of the cities Zara founded himself with cuirassers. The northern forces needed to be reinforced by newly produced cuirassers after taking a few cities because zara had a lot of troops come over from Viking territory. Good thing I already had >40% land/pop due to running keshiks exclusively.

Due to the obviously broken capitulation mechanics, Zara STILL won't capitulate after being knocked to one city, in viking land, with a tiny shred of my power. The reason is because he has sissy crap Peter as his voluntary vassal even now, for some stupid reason (I don't know how peter thought 4 oromos and some other random nonsense were going to "protect" him). However, in this case it doesn't matter much:

I heal up briefly, just enough to slam a lot of cuirassers into one viking city, leading to my first vassal:

Once the Ethiopian cities came out of revolt, it was game over:

The AP was really annoying me this game too. It was buddhist, and it kept trying to give mayan cities back, and I kept defying. Problem is, I had to spread the religion a little because Inca was perilously close to winning AP at first. I ate some unhappiness for it but that turned out OK.

Final game stats:

Could be better, could be worse. Having Zara stab me while fighting izzy, the AP and WW cause all over the place, and having to fight zara + vassals slowed me down, but since it isn't deity I managed .

Mounted warfare in this game is very powerful, if you use it intelligently. Hopefully this game showcases that somewhat.

I'll attach a few saves from when I remembered to do so:

View attachment QuickSave.CivBeyondSwordSave - Unless I saved over it by accident, this is right before hitting Izzy.

View attachment TheMeInTeam AD-1050.CivBeyondSwordSave - Right before attacking Pacal

View attachment TheMeInTeam AD-1605.CivBeyondSwordSave - Before fighting Zara

 

[civverguy]

Very nice. I need to try this sometime considering I haven't won by military on immortal yet.

 

[Stewie0416]

Wow, I never really liked Keshiks. But now i see the error of my ways lol!

But does this strategy work better on higher levels? Wouldn't you easily be able to pull yourself out of a tech hole by just bullying AI. What about lower levers ( like Prince) where AI won't really have much to give you. I guess thats a bit of a strange question as Maintenance and other things would be easier.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Wow, I never really liked Keshiks. But now i see the error of my ways lol!

But does this strategy work better on higher levels? Wouldn't you easily be able to pull yourself out of a tech hole by just bullying AI. What about lower levers ( like Prince) where AI won't really have much to give you. I guess thats a bit of a strange question as Maintenance and other things would be easier.

Yeah, it's a lot easier on lower levels because the maintenance isn't as severe, and the AI builds less units. Also, you have much longer until the AI gets longbows or worse yet castles/pikes. On monarch for example I'd have probably gotten through Zara or even won outright with keshiks. Anything below that definitely could have used them the whole way.

 

[Ignorant Teacher]

Man, I really enjoy your demostrations! Thanks for sharing the thought process there because I had never thought of going to the production centers first. Does it work with regular HAs too? I mean, they don't ignore movement cost...

Edit: I saw the one with Sal, but still.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It works with regular HA's, they're just not quite as powerful. If not mongolia, CHA trait is 2nd best since that and IMP are the only military traits that directly help mounted. Hannibal happens to have that trait, but anyone like nap/washington/lincoln/de gaulle/brennus/etc will work too. It makes a lot more sense if not mongolia to do it situationally ----> you tech AH because you have livestock and see horses. Conveniently, most CHA leaders start with either AG or hunting, speeding it up.

This is actually one of the first times I've attempted a "classical vs medieval" war by adding spies to the mix. I'm pleasantly surprised with the results so far, as spies are the only way to bypass the ridiculous bonuses of walls and castles vs bombardment that allows the AI to build far more units (this idea is stolen - after I saw ABCF execute a samurai/treb/spy war in immortal toku, I realized the potential of spies to enhance warfare in what is otherwise the hardest period on the attacker).

 

[GenerallyGreat]

It works with regular HA's, they're just not quite as powerful. If not mongolia, CHA trait is 2nd best since that and IMP are the only military traits that directly help mounted. Hannibal happens to have that trait, but anyone like nap/washington/lincoln/de gaulle/brennus/etc will work too. It makes a lot more sense if not mongolia to do it situationally ----> you tech AH because you have livestock and see horses. Conveniently, most CHA leaders start with either AG or hunting, speeding it up.

This is actually one of the first times I've attempted a "classical vs medieval" war by adding spies to the mix. I'm pleasantly surprised with the results so far, as spies are the only way to bypass the ridiculous bonuses of walls and castles vs bombardment that allows the AI to build far more units (this idea is stolen - after I saw ABCF execute a samurai/treb/spy war in immortal toku, I realized the potential of spies to enhance warfare in what is otherwise the hardest period on the attacker).

Funny enough, I too just dropped back to immortal after bashing my head against the deity wall for a week with the goal of smashing the AI with a mobile assault. I must say that the game feels a hell of a lot easier now as I won conquest in one of my quickest games.

I built a few less horses as I went to war in the more traditional window.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That's some nice chain-capping work.

I'm a little surprised you didn't use the UU more though. The 5 base str is really good, but a lot of people forget that because they're immune to first strikes, they tend to damage or kill archers more frequently also. Cheap to mass and they hit hard. Of course, you do have to have access to a horses in time though.

 

[GenerallyGreat]

That's some nice chain-capping work.

I'm a little surprised you didn't use the UU more though. The 5 base str is really good, but a lot of people forget that because they're immune to first strikes, they tend to damage or kill archers more frequently also. Cheap to mass and they hit hard. Of course, you do have to have access to a horses in time though.

I blocked a good chunk of land then used the WC for barb city taking. I didn't try to go any further right away as I wanted to to see how early I could get cuir/cavs running against longbows. The beautiful thing about cavs is that they don't need siege/spies that early as they have 70-85% odds on their own! And yeah chain-capping rocks.

 

[Psimon]

I'm playing a mounted campaign also, on Noble, and of course not fairing nearly as well. I'm a CIV4 noob, so I've a lot to learn, a lot of questions.

I had a great horse campaign when I was playing Augustus, so I decided to try out the Mongols and Keshiks. My last game I took out Hatshepsut, Caesar, and almost had Mehmed before he got Feudalism. I had to build up a massive force of Keshiks to take out this last city on "my" continent. During that time I also got Mathematics (traded) and studied Construction. So I had 3-4 catapaults to help out on the final assault (stinker had longbowmen, in a walled city, atop a hill).

Another problem I had was that his city was in the heart of my civ, and he's got a strong culture. I tried to counter this very early on by building Stonehenge, which seems to be a wonder most civs ignore. Also, since he got Feudalism and longbowmen in this city, he's cocky and won't give up or surrender any tech for a peace treaty. He's gonna regret that

Of course, by time I finally took his stupid city, I'm far behind in tech. To the direct north is Saladin, who's my buddy at Friendly and we're all Buddists. Unfortunately he's in my way unless I go Galley's. To the north,then east, is Hannibal, the real threat. He's got Engineering by now, music, etc. Pretty sure I'm boned.

Hannibal wasn't at war with anybody, and friends with Saladin I guess, so as I had Mehmed on his knees, he sends this huge SOD down to this city to try to take it - and have a city right in the heart of my civ! What balls. I closed my borders and kicked him out, so he's annoyed with me over that.

Spoiler :

Ankara was the city he had that took me so long to capture. As you can see (if you squint, lol), Mehmed is still alive, he's got two islands, one of them is a very annoying
one-tile island that I've never figured out how to take without Marines. Saladin is squeezed between me and Hannibal, I haven't scouted his civ yet, but that's how it appears. I think he's eyeing both borders nervously. Hannibal hasn't been at war with anyone (save the pathetic Mehmed) and is ripe for a successful military campaign.

--------------
oh, well, I'll try again. As you can see I need some tips on how to successfully win with a mounted campaign.

1. My tech path is polluted with non-essentials, like taking Mysticism to get Stonehenge. Do I just tech to Keshik's, then moneymakers exclusively, hoping to get other techs by conquest along the way?

2. I'm playing Warlords - I've not yet played BTS. I take it Capitulation is a BTS option? Is BTS better for this kind of campaign than Warlords?

3. Once they get Feudalism, what do I do? I've had this problem in every game I've had, not just mounted campaigns (prior to this I've been winning using a Praetorian rush). Namely, what to do about obsolete SOD's. Do I disband them, or a portion, and wait to upgrade? Disband nearly all of them? I'm afraid to do so, for by lowering my military standing I'm inviting attack. Yet that would save me a lot of money by not paying for obsolete units. On the other hand, if I upgrade, they keep their promo's.

4. What are you doing to stay on good terms with the other civs? Whether it's a Praetorian Rush, or Keshik, it always seems like I'm picking on somebody's "friend" and I end up at Annoyed with all the other civs. Hehe, that last campaign, I accidently sacked the Judism holy city, which ticked off Mehmed to no end (he was the only one of that faith, too).

5. Do you do any pillaging?

6. Generally what promotions do you give the Keshiks? I generally go for Combat 1 and Flanking 1, with a few scouts having Sentry instead. My warlords, I used the first two to create powerful leaders (whom I generally give Combat promos to make them strong, then Drill or Shock), the third I ensconced at my main martial city to give new Keshiks more promo's. (It helped by capturing the Great Wall). I make at least one or two Medic, also. I also made that last Warlord from a Swordsman, since I'm afraid keshik-only Warlords have a limited upgrade path (eventually to Calvary . . or to Gunships . . hmmm)

And, oh, yeah, the game lied or I made another mistake, but it says the Imperalism trait gets your units free Combat I. However, they don't, I have to give it to them. Grrr.

7. You keep Slavery during the whole campaign? Really need to find a good guide on Slavery and how/when to whip. I do it, but probably at the wrong times (I try to whip just before they hit 6 pop).

8. My leader was Ghengis, is the other preferable? (i'll probably answer this myself by looking at their traits. If Kublai is Creative that'd be helpful )

9. Do you use or try to get Seige engines at all?

Any tips or help would be great. I love the speed and ferocity of a mounted rush, and usually get away with it until Feudalism.

 

[michmbk]

Absolutely love this thread & the demo - keshiks are complete monsters when used right - they don't obsolete for a long time, and they can completely overrun the AI.

One of the biggest points I think TMIT demonstrated is that much of your research in a keshik game comes from peace treaties. As long as you hit alphabet (ideally, currency as well), you beat the AI down, and then get several techs for peace. Do it again with the next AI, and you can afford to keep your slider at 0% for a long, long time. You'll quickly catch up with all that new land once you whip courthouses, and then your production is out of control compared to the AI.

I'm not as skilled with the keshik rush as TMIT, but I've done it my share of times as well. In response to the previous poster's questions, here are my thoughts:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. My tech path is polluted with non-essentials, like taking Mysticism to get Stonehenge. Do I just tech to Keshik's, then moneymakers exclusively, hoping to get other techs by conquest along the way?

Kublai is better for that reason, you don't need mysticism. I typically tech AG (if I have a farm resource), AH, Mining, Pottery (for cottages), HBR, BW, Archery with pretty good success. Build the stable(s) while teching Archery/BW and chop/whip about 7-8 keshiks to start the rush. You can probably delay pottery, but I like the cottages as early as I can. As TMIT said, make sure to scout what you can - I like to do this with a chariot. It's key to hit the best cities early, and get rid of the AI's ability to produce spears.

2. I'm playing Warlords - I've not yet played BTS. I take it Capitulation is a BTS option? Is BTS better for this kind of campaign than Warlords? It works on warlords - same concept of taking techs for peace, you just need to eliminate the AI there.

3. Once they get Feudalism, what do I do? I've had this problem in every game I've had, not just mounted campaigns (prior to this I've been winning using a Praetorian rush). Namely, what to do about obsolete SOD's. Do I disband them, or a portion, and wait to upgrade? Disband nearly all of them? I'm afraid to do so, for by lowering my military standing I'm inviting attack. Yet that would save me a lot of money by not paying for obsolete units. On the other hand, if I upgrade, they keep their promo's.

Feudalism doesn't obsolete keshiks - TMIT and I have both posted games illustrating that a keshik force can blow away longbows, knights, maces, etc...With the right promos (see below), you might lose 2 keshiks per longbow, but that's about it - no issue because at this point, your stack is probably about 40-50 keshiks. I never disband - if nothing else, they can be used as siege for other units.

4. What are you doing to stay on good terms with the other civs?

I usually don't worry much about diplo in these games, but an occasional demand if you're worried about someone attacking a weakly defended area can help. I find it's rare someone will DOW you with your power ratio being so high with the keshiks.

5. Do you do any pillaging?

Metals, yes. I typically don't pillage much else, because I want the city to be up and running fast once I've taken it. Occasionally you might get desperate for gold and pillage some cottages, but that's rare for me.

6. Generally what promotions do you give the Keshiks?

Remember with 7 XP, you have 2 promotions - that's flanking 1 & 2 for many of the keshiks, combat 1 & 2 or combat 1 & shock for the rest. One keshik should get sentry and try not to use that one for more than mopup duty. My first general also usually makes a supermedic keshik.

7. You keep Slavery during the whole campaign? Really need to find a good guide on Slavery and how/when to whip. I do it, but probably at the wrong times (I try to whip just before they hit 6 pop).

Slavery is important, but don't also forget chopping and just normal production. Keshiks are pretty cheap, and after you've hit one civ, you have a lot of cities to produce keshiks, so you can really load them up. I try to use my capital solely for powering the empire, and every other city for keshiks, and will use the workers I capture to keep chopping them or farming to increase the food for the whip.

8. My leader was Ghengis, is the other preferable? (i'll probably answer this myself by looking at their traits. If Kublai is Creative that'd be helpful ).

Kublai is definitely better for it, but Genghis does pull a number of GGs, and gets the second city with the horse settled faster, so he does have some advantages. But I prefer Kublai for it overall.

 

[Grey Fox]

Mounted units are my favorite for warfare.

Chariots for the very early rush.
Horse Archers for a semi-early rush of awesomeness as demonstrated in this thread by TMIT (though with the better Keshiks, HAs work almost as well).

Horse Archers in the Medieval era assisted by espionage (support city revolt for 0% city defense).

Knights assisted by espionage.

Cataphracts or Cuirassiers assisted by espionage. Take Combat promotions if fighting Medieval units, 75%~ or so for a combat II unit! I just did this in an Immortal game with Justinian, I used 4 Great Generals to get Combat VI units for +75% str omg awesome units.

Cavalry assisted by espionage even works against Infantry if you got enough of them.


Then if you still need to war in the late late game, go for Advanced Flight, upgrade all your Cavalry to Helicopters and get Paratroopers and Bombers for extreme awesomeness. (Attack cities from 4 tiles away and capture them with paratroopers)

 

[r_rolo1]

I still say you should try again the KK NC That is probably one of the best maps for keshik showdown I've seen so far

 

[Psimon]

6. Generally what promotions do you give the Keshiks?

Remember with 7 XP, you have 2 promotions - that's flanking 1 & 2 for many of the keshiks, combat 1 & 2 or combat 1 & shock for the rest. One keshik should get sentry and try not to use that one for more than mopup duty. My first general also usually makes a supermedic keshik.

Thanks for the help! Went with Kublai on a new map and I'm doing a bit better. I've got Athens (Alexander) to my south and am using the "Choke" on his one city while I build up my initial Horde. To my north are the Mali, Vikings, and Japanese, but oddly they are held at bay by a "buffer zone" consisting of two barb cities.

I do have something odd going on with my Keshiks. The ones I'm creating in my Captial city have the full 7 xp, but others are getting only 4 . . . .

. . . oh, dumbness. Barracks affect Keshiks? I've got Ger's in those cities, but not barracks. Also, units produced in those other cities are NOT getting the free Combat I for some reason

 

[TheMeInTeam]

oh, well, I'll try again. As you can see I need some tips on how to successfully win with a mounted campaign.

1. My tech path is polluted with non-essentials, like taking Mysticism to get Stonehenge. Do I just tech to Keshik's, then moneymakers exclusively, hoping to get other techs by conquest along the way?

2. I'm playing Warlords - I've not yet played BTS. I take it Capitulation is a BTS option? Is BTS better for this kind of campaign than Warlords?

3. Once they get Feudalism, what do I do? I've had this problem in every game I've had, not just mounted campaigns (prior to this I've been winning using a Praetorian rush). Namely, what to do about obsolete SOD's. Do I disband them, or a portion, and wait to upgrade? Disband nearly all of them? I'm afraid to do so, for by lowering my military standing I'm inviting attack. Yet that would save me a lot of money by not paying for obsolete units. On the other hand, if I upgrade, they keep their promo's.

4. What are you doing to stay on good terms with the other civs? Whether it's a Praetorian Rush, or Keshik, it always seems like I'm picking on somebody's "friend" and I end up at Annoyed with all the other civs. Hehe, that last campaign, I accidently sacked the Judism holy city, which ticked off Mehmed to no end (he was the only one of that faith, too).

5. Do you do any pillaging?

6. Generally what promotions do you give the Keshiks? I generally go for Combat 1 and Flanking 1, with a few scouts having Sentry instead. My warlords, I used the first two to create powerful leaders (whom I generally give Combat promos to make them strong, then Drill or Shock), the third I ensconced at my main martial city to give new Keshiks more promo's. (It helped by capturing the Great Wall). I make at least one or two Medic, also. I also made that last Warlord from a Swordsman, since I'm afraid keshik-only Warlords have a limited upgrade path (eventually to Calvary . . or to Gunships . . hmmm)

And, oh, yeah, the game lied or I made another mistake, but it says the Imperalism trait gets your units free Combat I. However, they don't, I have to give it to them. Grrr.

7. You keep Slavery during the whole campaign? Really need to find a good guide on Slavery and how/when to whip. I do it, but probably at the wrong times (I try to whip just before they hit 6 pop).

8. My leader was Ghengis, is the other preferable? (i'll probably answer this myself by looking at their traits. If Kublai is Creative that'd be helpful )

9. Do you use or try to get Seige engines at all?

Any tips or help would be great. I love the speed and ferocity of a mounted rush, and usually get away with it until Feudalism.

First of all, given the cities you have your position isn't all that bad. Pacal had a lot more than just engineering when I attacked him, and production bonuses way beyond those seen at noble . If you wanted you could probably attack hannibal but it would probably be a lot easier to consolidate and get to cavalry (which comes very early in warlords). To answer your questions:

1. That's what I usually do, but on lower difficulties you can afford more conquest and the AI gets fewer techs, so you wind up teching a couple extra things yourself. Currency, CoL, and monarchy are the top priorities (normally monarchy is #1, but we're capturing resources with this strategy and need to avoid strike as a priority). Stonehenge isn't necessary. You can build monuments in your own cities if you need to, but when you capture enemy cities they tend to have a religion, and if you're not running a state religion (or the city has yours) you get culture from that. Otherwise, a monument isn't a terrible thing to whip, or if it is better as a science city and has some pop a library.

2. Capitulation was also a warlords feature, so it should work fine. I'm not 100% convinced it makes the early game warring easier since you have to mind crap like what zara pulled on me (declaring on me via taking my target as a vassal). Even though the mechanics are bad vassals still have some uses though, but that's for another thread.

3. I usually just power through the longbows, more recently I've been using spies to drop defenses so that it's less difficult. If you stop warring, I recommend hanging onto the HAs. They do pretty well against all medieval except pikes/knights in the field (and own classical troops in the field), and importantly flank damage the siege. They're actually quite good on active defense, so I'd hang onto them. You can upgrade them later.

4. Man, diplo deserves guides by itself. I usually use some combination of religion, civics, judicious tech trades, giving into demands, and planning ahead to keep people liking me either a) enough to not declare on me or b) at least enough that they will declare on someone else more. I also know the DoW mechanics quite well so it's easier to plan on who is easier to effectively prevent wars.

5. Other than metals and very early chokes, no. I'm capturing those cities, so I want their improvements generally. Even more importantly, pillaging takes time, time that could be spent capturing more cities.

6. Do not ever go combat I flanking I, you're not getting the best of either world. The bulk of mine are flanking II (leads attacks vs units that give combat II < 50% odds), combat II (general purpose killing units, promoted down the combat line), and combat I shock (very good vs axes and swords, helps vs slightly damaged spears, even serves ok vs maces). I usually have one sentry unit in the stack as well as the recon is very valuable.

7. I usually keep slavery because serfdom sucks (even moreso with a lot of capture workers cutting into its need) and I'm usually trying to produce units rather than running specialists. If the game goes on long enough that cities can grow and you get guilds (and even better chemistry), going caste workshops is stronger than slavery. I did get guilds in this demo, but very close to the end, i'd likely not have converted those cities to workshop spam by the time the game functionally ended, and the cottages still had use as upgrade money (and teching out MT).

8. Under ideal conditions, Genghis is better. You get more GG's and can really make some strong guys, and the first couple settlers are cheaper. However, the border pops of KK's CRE trait and flexibility on early city placement are more convenient, and he's a little better if you roll a map where lots of early HA warfare isn't practical.

9. Siege engines are bad for this strategy, which is the complete opposite of virtually any other kind of classical or later warfare. A key advantage of mounted is its movement speed once the war starts. Siege moves slower, and if you're using it to bombard it also loses time there. Whatever benefits it offers fall behind the costs of allowing the AI more time to build units, and others more time to dogpile you before you can handle it.

 

[Psimon]

Well, I ran into the stone wall that's called Backruptcy. In my latest game I was pillaging the Mali's lands for all the gold I could get . . . because there's no option to demand gold, settle the war for gold? Do I have to have Currency? Nor can I get tech, as I (assume) I need Alphabet. My learning curve is measured in 100's of turns, since I had to turn my science slider down to zero. Nor can I turn cities into producing gold, as, again, that probably needs Currency. grrrr.

My mistake - besides mismangement - is that I didn't get pottery early enough, I think. That, and I took and kept a distant barbarian city - BIG mistake, as the maintenance/corruption cost hit my meager budget like a sledgehammer ( I was swayed by the presence of copper, which I didn't have, marble nearby, and horses about a city's length away).

Wish those barb's had made more cities, they're profitable. As it stands, I'll try again, and make sure I've got a stash before I go on the warpath, and try to cottage early.

I had the Greeks isolated to the south. They were the worlds "richest" civ according to the report, and I could have settled . . . assuming I could get money from them without Currency. My problem is I like to wipe out a civ, and if I'd accepted a peace treaty, the southern half of my civ was largely undeveloped and they had a Settler all ready to go.

Lastly, how do you "automate" slavery?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, I ran into the stone wall that's called Backruptcy. In my latest game I was pillaging the Mali's lands for all the gold I could get . . . because there's no option to demand gold, settle the war for gold? Do I have to have Currency? Nor can I get tech, as I (assume) I need Alphabet. My learning curve is measured in 100's of turns, since I had to turn my science slider down to zero. Nor can I turn cities into producing gold, as, again, that probably needs Currency. grrrr.

I made it a point to turn the slider off ahead of time to give captured cities a chance to develop. To get gold, you or the AI have to have currency. Alphabet for tech. In my walkthrough I was at -30 gpt without either. I used city capture gold to buy alphabet off pacal since he had currency. On lower difficulties, self researching is an option...the most important thing is to turn the slider off early enough to have a reserve that will last you until after the war ends.

I had the Greeks isolated to the south. They were the worlds "richest" civ according to the report, and I could have settled . . . assuming I could get money from them without Currency. My problem is I like to wipe out a civ, and if I'd accepted a peace treaty, the southern half of my civ was largely undeveloped and they had a Settler all ready to go.

You only have to wait 10 turns to kill them after the war ends . The techs/gold are often worth it. If they settle another city...well...more money even if you have to raze it .

Lastly, how do you "automate" slavery?

Production automation (the governor on the left) will whip automatically. However, it also picks what to build for you unless you already selected something (that isn't wealth or research, which it will take off the queue). Because of this, I generally don't recommend using it. The way I used it in this game was to alt-click the keshiks, which means that while I left auto-whips on, the city could only build those units and nothing else (I also conveniently waypointed them to mass in a city near my opponent). Note that the governor does not optimize the whip quite like humans can, but if you can't be bothered it's good enough and definitely better than nothing.

 

[Tecibbar]

I only read the original post. Looks like amazing win. I have one question. If you replace the stack of Keshik with aggressive swordsman, what would be the outcome of the war?

Put another way, you didn't illustrate how mobile assault is crucial to your win.

 

[killmeplease]

good reading

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I only read the original post. Looks like amazing win. I have one question. If you replace the stack of Keshik with aggressive swordsman, what would be the outcome of the war?

Put another way, you didn't illustrate how mobile assault is crucial to your win.

If I replaced the keshiks with slightly more swords...

I'd have gotten flattened badly.

The illustration should be fairly obvious. In each of the wars, the opponent's major cities fell WITHIN THE FIRST THREE TURNS, with the exception of zara, who took like 5-6 because he had the game's biggest military and it met me in the field outside his capitol. That war was still over in 10 turns though.

In fact, the pacal war was 17 turns but was functionally over after 3. Izzy was also completely crippled by the first war. I don't know what more you want ---> the speed at which the cities were taken had a material effect on the outcome. Try some immortal sword rushes of your own in those time periods and you'll see.

Within the first 3 turns, swords couldn't even reach the first city in some cases, let alone take several in that time frame.

Give an immortal AI time to produce and whip military in its biggest cities. Give it 7+ turns (realistic sword march to get to say capitol 2nd). Watch the AI put 4+ more defenders there, and have time to whip counters to your invasion stack.

Also, mounted does better against more advanced units. Would you have gone swords against pacal, who had nationalism and guilds, along with maces and longbows? I bet you wouldn't.