Keshiks Aren't Really Better Than Stock HA's

[dankok]

I'd say I probably self-research IW about 30-50% of the time on Emp/Imm. If I already have Copper and there is no jungle to cut, then I usually trade for it.

 

[dankok]

@Gumbolt

I was able to locate saves for the last 16 games I played to check if there was Iron nearby. Obviously didn't include games played on Earth map or other scenarios. All games were either Normal or Huge and map type was Fractal or Pangaea.

Anyways in those 16 games:

3 games there was Iron in the BFC
5 games there was Iron within 3 tiles of the capital
2 games Iron was 5 tiles from the capital
2 games Iron was 6 tiles from the capital
2 games Iron was 7 tiles from the capital
1 game Iron was 8 tiles from the capital
1 game Iron was 10 tiles from the capital

In one of the games with Iron 7 tiles from the capital, it was much closer to the AI and on the other side of a bay so it was pretty inaccessible. And in the game where it was 10 tiles away, it was closer to another AI capital so pretty inaccessible as well. However, I had Copper in the BFC in that one. In all of the other 14 games, getting to Iron was simple with the first 3 or 4 cities.

 

[drewisfat]

The odds of having easily accessible iron are going to vary greatly on map script. You're much more likely to find iron on a huge map than a standard sized one. Also going to have less space on a Pangaea than most other scripts. There's also a big difference between, yep there's iron that falls somewhere in my natural territory and iron in a place that lends itself to a decent early city. Finally, the higher the difficulty level the faster the AI is going to take up available space. There's a huge jump from immortal to deity in this regard because the AI is snowballing from 2 cities at the start. If those settings don't matter to you that's fine..... but if you're confused why some players rank Keshiks higher and Praets lower than you, it's partly because if you play Deity Pangaea maps you're not getting early convenient usable iron anywhere close to 90% of the time.

And the other part is that IW is a free tech if you trade for it and not a free tech if you tech it yourself. It is both reliable and gives decent value before currency lets you use gold to even out trades. I don't think it should be self-teched if you have AIs to trade for it. Chopping jungles takes longer and doesn't give the production bonus forests do. Just really inefficient use of early worker turns. So I already have reason to avoid jungles like the plague until calendar, where I will have already traded for IW. Maybe gems would change my thinking, but I would have to believe that the extra gems give me beakers comparable to the IW tech in the short time frame between when I could self-tech IW and when I could trade for it. That's a pretty tall order.

 

[Gumbolt]

The availability of iron still doesn't change fact you would be better off trading for IW. I find it better to let a nearby Ai take the jungle terrain. Let them clear the jungle where the resources are. Then attack once they have done the hard work.

I can't remember last time I self teched IW on a pangea map. You can't trade it away like HBR.

I think you need to upload a game to show how this is actually better. Did you try the Stalin game i posted? Try that map twice at start. Once to self tech IW. The second time to trade for it. See what is quicker. More importantly if you actually would of used the iron.

 

[dankok]

The availability of iron still doesn't change fact you would be better off trading for IW. I find it better to let a nearby Ai take the jungle terrain. Let them clear the jungle where the resources are. Then attack once they have done the hard work.

I can't remember last time I self teched IW on a pangea map. You can't trade it away like HBR.

I think you need to upload a game to show how this is actually better. Did you try the Stalin game i posted? Try that map twice at start. Once to self tech IW. The second time to trade for it. See what is quicker. More importantly if you actually would of used the iron.

In the current game I'm playing as Hammurabi (not the NC...), I literally have one good city spot besides the capital if I don't settle the jungle. My capital Babylon is a bit south of the jungle belt, west of it is plains with no food resources and east is a small river but lots of grassland hills and no seafood or food resources. Further south is desert then tundra but there is that one good city spot there with Wheat, Crabs, and Stone. If I wait for the AI to trade me IW it will probably be 500 BC and that's too late to have just two good cities.

Like I said, if I have Copper, no jungle nearby and not playing as Rome, then there is no need to research IW. It's not like I would always research it or even often but I'm baffled by the stance of certain players who never research it. In some games it's very beneficial.

Anyways this thread got derailed. I plan to make a game and showcase a stock HA rush and prove that you can do similarly as with Keshiks.

 

[Gumbolt]

Most on here will play the map. Hard to comment on your current game with no save or pictures.