If you go for Iron Working and it turns out there is no Iron (rare maybe 10% of the time?) you can often trade it to the AI. In many games you also want to research IW to clear Jungle.
I always achieved better results with axepult or cannons than with HAs or cuirassiers respectively. Slow and steady wins the race
Comparing HA or Keshiks with Praetorians is simply ridiculous. Not to mention that good HA rush on Deity requires a lot of skill, while even clumsily done Praet rush is fairly efficient. As a rule HA<Keshik<<axepult<<praepult. By symbol << I mean that the left is not just inferior but a rather painful experience compared to the right. It seems that even many of the more experienced players have no idea of the true strength of Praets. No wonder Rome was so underrepresented in HoF.
Anyway, this discussion was supposed to be about Keshik vs HA.
Whole point of early wars here was to have easy targets so you can use their land. I targeted a nearby Ai I knew I could take down. The second Ai was about chance.Capturing wonders like mids can be a huge boost to science.Killed both Ai albeit Pascal took final Egyptian city. (I took all their techs and gold turn before. (Plus all his key cities.)
As for not taking down Shaka and Pascal? This a matter of distance and units. Pascal was very quick to longbows. Shaka was hidden behind him. Actually Pascal is doing really well and could well take Shaka down in long term. Pascal has actually built quite a few units here.
Agree with comments from Others. Trading HBR this game has been really useful. Every AI pretty much had IW before me. Hence why I rarely tech it.
My game is not quite won but I think the Keshik can take down Aztecs. Will aim for cuirs most likely.
Teching and trading works differently on deity, you could i.e. always trade for IW cos it has very high priority for AIs, and they have huge headstarts and research discounts.
So we get nothing for IW in the trading game. Costs per turn will also explode with army costs and (hopefully) captured cities.
I think nobody questions that Praets can take some cities, but you cannot sit back and relax afterwards with an almost won game
HBR in comparison has good trade value, not a prio tech for most AIs.
Upside potential means that faster units can end wars sooner (or start new ones quicker), which is important if you look at recovery afterwards, or at opportunities to further use them.
Deity AIs do everything at least 3x faster than let's say Emperor AIs, this includes getting out units or teching towards military upgrades (Longbows i.e.),
so your own speed matters a lot as well.
All being said, Praets are also strong units (and there have been plenty discussions years ago how they compare to HAs).
Mostly we are saying that unit strength is not everything against AIs that are so far ahead of you early.
More losses can still be better than moving along slower, if you have a good stream of reinforcements.
It's such a deep topic that saying Praets have 8str while Keshiks have 6, so Praets > Keshiks will not do.
They could still come out ahead in some games, but def. not always.
Great post Fippy. I didn't know that the AI prioritizes IW on Deity. That definitely makes it less preferential. I remember trying a few games on Deity Normal and the AI is absolutely ruthless. I was blocked in repeatedly at 4 cities and they teched Feudalism circa 500 BC. The window for any rush is extremely short and Keshiks have an advantage over Praets in that you can see if there are Horses available very very early with AH and then make a decision: Horses = rush No Horses = no rush. With Praets it seems you need to invest in an expensive dead-end tech early. In the games where you don't have nearby Iron, you've lost the game because of the decision to research IW.
I also understand that unit maintenance and such is crushing on Deity and simply having your army in enemy territory to 10 turns longer because of 1-move can drain your economy. I really think Deity is like a whole other game to other levels because so many strategies don't carry over. To be fair I did say in my original post that I play Emperor/Immortal and some MP and my post is based on experiences there. However a lot of posters here you included play Deity and are better players than me so I'll shut up.
I play on monarch these days. I can't debate on marathon cause i dont like anything different from normal speed, and it changes the game a lot as well as the tech rate! And btw china dont have mysticism on t300 ? /not to mention priesthood, writing and poly/. Oh well. haha , yeah sweet =)
I can't relate with these settings, so really the example you gave me is irrelevant.
And I am sorry that i don't have a screenshot but I have more than a dozen games where an AI went IW before pottery and even before food techs. And I know it cause i had espionage on him. In one of my last games he went iron working and AFTER that -> pottery.
Sooo... yeah. maybe not on noble but for sure on monarch they do it a lot.
Least you have an opinion. Not all stratgeies work on all levels. It is unusual to have a game with such a challenging deity level. You don't get that in many new games. Easier for developers to make money by targeting the average game buyer rather than gamers who know how to squeeze out performance from the game.
I think you can still war on deity. The main issue is they spam so many units and expand to 6-7 cities pretty quickly.
Got cuirs about 1000ad on my game.Even with early warfare taking out 2 AI. Land and mids too over powerful. Taken 4 of the Mayan cities. Aztecs capitulated after 1 city and some big losses. I was more focused on economy that the UU after the first 2 wars.
All done by 1230ad. It was unlikely with phants on map for Keshik to take down more than 3-4 AI. On Monarch level you could of rolled over entire map.
This doesn't really prove it to be fair. You're at turn 300 which is equivalent to turn 100 on Normal speed. That would be quite late not to have Iron Working.
It's just one of those things. AI will always prioritise IW. They don't go for HBR or Aesthetics. Hence why many players beeline aesthetics as a trading tech,.
When you play the game a few hundred times some things are just common knowledge. On immortal if you do a late rush the AI will likely already have IW.
Just checked an immortal game i was playing. 2 Ai had IW by 1320bc on normal speed. I suspect the reason behind it is to stop players over running weak AI early on.
It's just one of those things. AI will always prioritise IW. They don't go for HBR or Aesthetics. Hence why many players beeline aesthetics as a trading tech,.
When you play the game a few hundred times some things are just common knowledge. On immortal if you do a late rush the AI will likely already have IW.
Just checked an immortal game i was playing. 2 Ai had IW by 1320bc on normal speed. I suspect the reason behind it is to stop players over running weak AI early on.
I think there is a fair amount of randomness in AI decisions. I've seen AI's get a tech like Iron Working even earlier. 1320 BC is turn 67 which isn't even so early. I've also seen Deity AI's on Sullla's AI Survivor not get Mysticism for 80 turns and leave their cities with only first ring tiles. Generally the AI goes for certain techs and leaves others. Generally... but I've seen lots of exceptions. I've seen Victoria beeline Liberalism on Emperor and get it 600 AD. She hadn't even researched Feudalism or Machinery at that point.
Iron Working is a tech I often research very early. Iron is such an important resource, Swords help a lot for taking barb cities, and there is often a lot of good land in the jungle belt. If I don't have nearby Copper it's even more of a must. I've also successfully traded IW to the AI on many occasions. It's not so clear cut. Anyways on lower than Deity, AI prioritizing IW has no major strategic considerations because it's not so hard to stay on par in tech.
10) Flavors describe what kind of techs a civilization pursues. The flavor strength was converted from numbers to words as follows:
Flavor
2->Low
5->Medium
10->High
There are many factors that determine what technology a civ will pursue such as a random variable, a free tech or free great person (massive influence!), unlocks a religion(bigger factor if favorite), unlocks a unit, unlocks a wonder, unlocks a civic(bigger factor if favorite), the strategy the AI is pursuing, planning a war etc. It is thought that the flavor of the AI affects the tech choice perhaps 33% of the time.
All the techs in the game with the various flavors can be found here.
All the calculated values for the various AI based off their flavors and the flavors of the techs can be found here.
Just looking at those results, it becomes apparent that Joao, Lincoln, Peter, and Tokugawa like Education more than the rest of the AI and are more likely to tech it.
Running through a calculation: Hatshepsut has religion flavor of 2(Low) and culture flavor of 5(Medium). Aesthetics has religion flavor of 2, science flavor of 6, and culture flavor of 8. So Hatshepsut calculates Aesthetics to have a value of 2*2+5*8=44. Mathematics has gold flavor of 2, production flavor of 1, military flavor of 1, and science flavor of 10. So Hatshepsut calculated Mathematics to have a value of 0. She will tend to tech Aesthetics before Mathematics.
Since flavors only influence what techs are researched to a limited degree, the usefulness on this info isn't as great as it could be. However, there is no denying that on average Isabella techs religions and Genghis Khan goes after Military Tradition, Rifling, and Artillery when they get the chance.
It is my fault about the dead links because the guy probably graduated college and I didn't future proof things.
Pulling the FLAVORS data out a 2nd time will require a spreadsheet and going through line-by-line in the C:\Program Files (x86)\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\Technologies\CIV4TechInfos.xml and yanking them out one at a time.
For Iron Working, the flavors are Military 7, Production 8, Science 5, Growth 6, Gold 0, Culture 0, Religion 0.
Hammurabi's Flavor is Culture(High) as noted by Civ Illustrated, so he rates all techs with culture flavor x10.
Flavors: Military, Production, Science, Growth, Gold, Culture, Religion
He would assign Iron Working a rating of 0*7+0*8+0*5+0*6+0*0+10*0+0*0 = 0.
He would assign Mathematics a rating of 0*1+0*1+0*10+0*0+0*2+10*0+0*0= 0.
He would assign Aesthetics a rating of 0*0+0*0+0*6+0*0+0*0+10*8+0*2 = 80.
So why did Hammurabi pick Math over both Iron Working and Aesthetics?
Why is the AI hardcoded to tech Iron Working so much?
Is it merely a flavor calculation (thought to be worth 33% of an AI's tech decision), or is there more to it?
Aesthetics, Math, Alphabet, Horseback Riding, Monarchy, Code of Laws, Metal Casting, and Theology are all other choices they could tech, but once they have Bronze Working it seems pretty set in stone they will go for Iron Working soon.
As for why, the Civ Illustrated section for AI flavors has gone kaput due to dead links, so the data is missing to provide a partial explanation.
It is my fault about the dead links because the guy probably graduated college and I didn't future proof things.
Pulling the FLAVORS data out a 2nd time will require a spreadsheet and going through line-by-line in the C:\Program Files (x86)\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\Technologies\CIV4TechInfos.xml and yanking them out one at a time.
For Iron Working, the flavors are Military 7, Production 8, Science 5, Growth 6, Culture 0, Religion 0.
Hammurabi's Flavor is Culture(High) as noted by Civ Illustrated, so he rates all techs with culture flavor x10.
Flavors: Military, Production, Science, Growth, Gold, Culture, Religion
He would assign Iron Working a rating of 0*7+0*8+0*5+0*6+0*0+10*0+0*0 = 0.
He would assign Mathematics a rating of 0*1+0*1+0*10+0*0+0*2+10*0+0*0= 0.
he would assign Aesthetics a rating of 0*0+0*0+0*6+0*0+0*0+10*8+0*2 = 80.
So why did Hammurabi pick Math over both Iron Working and Aesthetics?
Why is the AI hardcoded to tech Iron Working so much?
Is it merely a flavor calculation (thought to be worth 33% of an AI's tech decision), or is there more to it?
Aesthetics, Math, Alphabet, Horseback Riding, Monarchy, Code of Laws, Metal Casting, and Theology are all other choices they could tech, but once they have Bronze Working it seems pretty set in stone they will go for Iron Working soon.
To be fair though, the AI based on the tech tree you posted already have Sailing, Writing and a quartet of ancient religious techs (Poly, Medi, Mono, PH). Turn 77 isn't exactly early to start researching Iron Working. However, your post shows the overwhelming preference to research it and no one can argue with that.
Yea I understood that they start with all of them. And his post makes it clear that the AI loves IW. My point was just that researching Sailing, Writing, and four religious techs all before IW wouldn't really be early. Turn 77 (Classical start) isn't early to start IW.
I would ignore T77 as this is likely a slower speed game. (Epic?) On normal speed I would expect 2000bc to be T50 for a classical start.
Did a test game myself with 17 Ai. T1 all but two teched IW. Mansa - COl and Pascal went Monarchy.
Your question now seems to be what is the usual date AI get IW? Harder to answer as most people on Immortal or Deity would not have alphabet by 2000bc. Of course you often spot iron resources by the yields the AI have on tiles. Certainly 1300bc is more than possible if they head directly there.
I would ignore T77 as this is likely a slower speed game. (Epic?) On normal speed I would expect 2000bc to be T50 for a classical start.
Did a test game myself with 17 Ai. T1 all but two teched IW. Mansa - COl and Pascal went Monarchy.
Your question now seems to be what is the usual date AI get IW? Harder to answer as most people on Immortal or Deity would not have alphabet by 2000bc. Of course you often spot iron resources by the yields the AI have on tiles. Certainly 1300bc is more than possible if they head directly there.
My point was just that I would almost always go for IW before I research all of Sailing, Writing, and four religious techs. This situation with the classical start doesn't represent an IW beeline.
In one of the public games I ran on the forum years ago with Stalin on Emperor/Normal, I recall Shaka had IW and actual Swords built circa 1000 BC. I hit him with what was a pretty late axerush because I got Moscow to build the GW and Pyramids before. By the way Stalin is the only Agg civ to start with Mining to he can go hit early with axes but that's another discussion.
When did I say I rush with Swords every game? I'm confused. I simply stated that I often research IW before the AI. More often to clear jungle or be able to capture barb cities with fewer losses. But yes a generic Sword rush on Immortal (not even Praets or even Gallics) can work. But I don't do it often because there are more efficient ways to take out neighbours. A generic HA rush beats a generic Sword rush for instance.
As for not having Iron nearby, games are few where you start without it nearby. Maybe 10% of the time. I don't know why people use that as an argument. We have selective memory and remember games without a resource like Iron but in truth it happens very rarely. Kind of like how we remember losing a battle with 99% odds when 1% of losing isn't even that small a probability when you think of a typical warring game killing hundreds of units. It's bound to happen. Just like if you play tons of games you won't have Iron on a few.
Anyways I'll give your start a try. Are you playing it as well?
On Immortal or Emp i would def. research Alpha and trade for IW in most situations, rather than self-teching it.
(on Deity, but i think that was already mentioned, it's usually Aest and trading for Alpha & the rest)
Can be done with poor starts as well, thanks to libraries and scientists.
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From a Marathon/Noble game, around T300 IIRC. "Prioritize" is an understatement.
