King Younk's Questions thread

[Gumbolt]

Why worry about diplomacy ai naval assaults rarely happen.

I think the slow teching is down to poor resources and map settings. Huge increases tech costs. Marathan tripples research costs? I think the issue here is the land.

Conquered land will have colonial costs that cripple you. Okay with police property?

If you don't have land to whip you need other solutions to build armies. Weak vassals do you no good if your cities run out of steam production wise. Cuirs rushes for me involve continual whipping of most cities with maybe one strong production unit pump. On these settings that should be OP compared to whipping?

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

For an intercontinental war, consider the timing of upgrades to be done *after invasion*. If you can ship over the HA's directly and take a single city (especially if there is a barb city or disconnected island city), then you can sometimes still invade close to the MT tech date.

Otherwise yeah, the extra 10 turns to build ships and transport can really hurt the timing window.

Although I suppose the travel time for galleons on Marathon is actually trivial...

 

[5tephen]

@NothingBesideRemains Good thought on upgrade on disembarkation - I was too slow for that to be effective in this game as I prioritised communism. Movement has all sorts of quirks on this speed - I have found a significant benefit in moving healing units into cities for example whereas on normal speed this wastes time and attack speed.

@Gumbolt I agree that diplomacy probably has low value but I just want to keep it good enough to not get dogpiled by the whole world - main objective now is finishing this with using the least real life time.

I think vassals still add to costs too? I've gone all in on state property so hopefully it has some utility in keeping costs down/production up! Maybe whipping like crazy would have been better - I feel I am playing very conservatively trying not to inadvertently lose - my fear in continuously whipping cuirassiers would be if my attack lost steam the economic recovery could be disastrous - state property workshops and biology farms are slower but steadier. One thing about mara/huge is it feels like a big time investment already made to take any risks now.

Regarding map settings I think this is what you get with mara/huge but that's essentially the premise of this thread? I wonder if AIs have been crippled by maintenance costs of overexpansion? Assuming @King Younk hasn't started the great plains map I posted, do you think you share a more balanced huge/mara NHNE map @Gumbolt ?

 

[Gumbolt]

For current map i think the map seems harsh on food if Ai are struggling to get capital above size 10+. Albeit there are some good Ai cities here if captured. There are others that if you whipped would take 30-40+ turns to grow back? I find it more fun when the AI are more enabled and not restricted.

Your new map

Spoiler New map spoiler :

I forgot how Great plans was laid out. You basically have mountainous terrain on far side. Then a mixture of plain and rivers in centre. You often have to move 6-7 turns to find a good place to settle. If you start on the RHS you will often find lush green land with big food resources. So 4-5 ai on this map will have great starts. 3600+ land with 18 AI mostly building junk cities. Not sure how much horse resources you actually get on great plains either. hink this map will be a struggle if you plan to go to war whipping away flood plains? Very few mountain tiles in centre. I prefer maps where you can cross map from side to side. I guess that might of helped the player too much here? Are we setting games as challenge or for fun?

I dunno maybe KY would love this. I prefer huge but more green maps so it stays fun.

Credit to you for getting capital to size 15 on your game. Guess you avoided whipping after a certain size.

 

[pigswill]

Had a quick look at the map, land doesn't look that harsh but certainly under-developed because AIs have had room to expand rather than grow vertically, the AI have a lot of unimproved tiles waiting for worker turns.

 

[5tephen]

Are we setting games as challenge or for fun?

Bit of both maybe? KY asked for a challenge, I'm looking to do something a bit different to what I usually do but still want it to be fun and definitely not unwinnable. Also prefer green maps but still not sure what good would look like - inland sea? Whipped sparingly in current game - neither the food or happiness to do otherwise - plenty of forests to chop though

 

[Gumbolt]

See if he tries your new map. Do you farm flood plains on huge maps? I guess 1-2 but how many worker turns? Hmmm. If these maps were not marathan I might of played. I struggle for time on normal speed maps.

 

[AcaMetis]

Also prefer green maps but still not sure what good would look like - inland sea?

Depends. If you're going with the maximum amount of AIs it's something you can give a shot, otherwise Huge/Mara Inland Sea is going to be an endless horde of barbarians everywhere at all times. Than again if you're looking for a challenge Raging Barbs on an Inland Sea map is...well, it's not easy, that's for sure .

Another map script you might try is Lakes, although the same caveat about the barbarian hordes applies to that one.

 

[pigswill]

Still playing on from KY's Qin game (last update post #247). Up to 1680. Killed Vikings (easy target, 5 cities). At war w Shaka, another relatively easy target, lots of land but behind on tech. Just destroyed his American vassal. Its slow going. Not falling too far behind in research. Difficult to stay in slavery when 10+ AIs are running emancipation. Had to research fission because no oil and I had a little war with Hannibal who had destroyers.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Spoiler Thoughts :

I only played a couple of turns yesterday as I got stuck with what to do. Having spent 12000 gold changing 40 HAs into cuirassiers Pacal immediately offered to peace vassal which was not part of the plan! Having thought about this yesterday and over the night, I have concluded that maybe we’re aiming for vassals too early? I'm not sure on a huge map whether a 9 city vassal has any relevance or whether this is like taking a 2/3 city vassal on normal?

My other problem was I realised too late prompted by @Mr_Trotsky was that I had nowhere near enough cuirassiers to go intercontinental and lacked the production to solve this in a timely enough fashion so all my cuirassiers were a bit useless . @pigswill made me worry about tech and military power too!

Which brings me to my proposed solution. Reject Pacal as a vassal; I need his land for workshops for units and research and I can turn my otherwise worthless cuirassiers into cities. Build musketeers for future infantry upgrades and go frigates and cannons taking along whatever’s left of my cuirassiers and musketeers for now. Don’t go Khmer yet as risk of a quagmire with likely Shaka and another coming in on his side. Take Victoria, Sitting Bull and Huayna instead but no vassals yet, just elimination - I need more land for workshops still and maybe need to consider diplomatic consequences of too many vassals and motherland anger. I also think taking out these guys will also prevent escalation of the global tech pace.

I’m not sure AI on AI wars are in my favour @pigswill - if Khmer end up with a vassal or two they’re going to be monstrous.

Lastly I don’t know what I was thinking with diplo victory suggestion ! Completely incompatible with world king - the grind of this size map had me a bit despondent but if I'm going to play this and maybe one other mara/huge map ever then I want to make it count

Spoiler :

Pacal did that to me in the Brennus NC game. I upgraded my trebs to cannons with the intention of attacking next turn and the spike in power caused him to offer to vassal on the inter-turn. I politely declined and agree you should do the same. If you don’t think cuirassiers will be useful for an intercontinental war, I agree that you should wipe him out. If you’ve got communism even his ice cities will be an immediate net gain because of intercontinental trade routes. The other advantage is that you can use them to whip galleons and one of the issues is going to be getting enough ships to transport your land units.

Re wars between the AI, I’m not too worried about them vassaling each other through wars. Because they’re aren’t enough religions to go round, each continent has one or no religion. Therefore, I suspect most of the wars will be ineffective intercontinentale ones while a lot of the weaker civs just peace vassal as part of a religious bloc love in.

 

[5tephen]

Spoiler Update :

Declared war on Victoria 1390. I believe it's only 12 turns later but several real life hours and Victoria has gone, Huayna stands on the verge of elimination and Sitting Bull waits patiently for a DOW. The war micromanagement is hard to focus on - have lost ~6 cannons in undefended galleons. Ottoman's irritated me by a surprise DOW and taking a city - no real consequence as I got it back the next turn. My tech has slowed down - city maintenance is costing me a fortune - but I'm still competitive. Rifles are going to be in play before the end of the game but I am thinking of Isabella next after SB with Lincoln, Darius and Augustus on that continent to follow and none of them have PP yet. Hoping to avoid the need to fight on Khmer continent at all.

It's a lot of work to win on these maps! Micromanagement of cities has dimished to not much but I'm trying to get each at least vaguely optimised once. 18 workers can 1 turn a workshop...

Spoiler War front :

Spoiler Costs :

 

[Gumbolt]

Do you not galleon chain units to speed up wars? On that map I figure you need about 150 cities to win? Or use vassals. At least the map makes life interestesting if you do get a big AI to fight against.

Vassalage vs bureau. +2xp makes better cannons. Free units balances lost commerce but lost hammers may swing pending advantage of 2xp in every new unit? Anarchy time on huge is painful!

Costs in cities at 7 per turn would be a lot worse with no communism. No reason I am put off playing Japan on world maps. You pretty much have to move the capital asap.

No really given much away as all games will roll differently.

 

[5tephen]

I hardly play water maps so my galleon chaining leaves something to be desired. I'm using my galleons to move mini stacks between cities to save turns wading cannons through enemy territory. Not sure I have enough galleons to chain too or if that would be higher priority - the map is vast - not sure if I'm just making excuses for lazy micro...

Agree about 150 cities for domination - that's what's so demoralising . I will go vassals at some point but currently I don't think I'm big enough. Any vassal I take now is likely to be below average global power making future opponents harder to vassal whereas taking their cities is like shooting fish in a barrel. Ideally I would like to avoid going to war with 42 city Khmer - not like I wouldn't win but it would take ages. I hear you about the challenge but for me that was getting to this point and now I want to get over the line.

Vassalage is on the horizon along with maybe police state. I have 2 great people saved and a third different one coming for my fourth MoM powered golden age. I don't want to go through 4T anarchy having done that to get into state property and free religion. I like level 2 cannons but I've only lost a couple level 1 cannons in combat (plus the ones in galleons ) so no massive rush for that and as you say have been enjoying the 50% hammers boost in capital to say nothing of the fact this is where majority of my beakers are located albeit it's not an amazing commerce spot.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Around 1400 AD update

Spoiler :

Finished nationalism and built Taj with GE. Got two GM during the golden age. This was a mistake as I needed beakers not gold because map sales were booming. I went guilds-banking-economics and got GM number three.

I used one for a golden age. I triggered that golden age when I was about twelve turns from
finishing chemistry and used that golden age to get another non-GM great person which allowed me to immediately start another one. I finished steel about three turns from the end of golden age no.3 and revolted into theocracy and slavery. I decided to stay in rep because the way unit costs are scaled on marathon I didn’t think I needed the police state production boost and continuing to tech a little bit would help. I suspect you can take the map with cannons and rifles but more advanced units will help speed things up. Similar thinking led me to stay in bureau rather than go nationhood. Somewhere during those two golden ages I revolted to free market about fifteen turns later than I should have done.

The only useful trade I got along the way was guilds for engineering with Pacal. Ideally I wouldn’t have given him knights but it wasn’t a huge concern.

I whipped some pikes, maces, knights and trebs to upgrade. I messed up by completing steel so I had to smash my iron for a few turns to allow continued treb production which in turn stopped my mace, knights and pike production. Urgh.

I’d slow built a few trebs during the golden age but they only had 3exp and I wanted some CR2 trebs to upgrade as well. 3exp/CR1 is fine for wounded longbows but they don’t get great odds against full health. I’d also slow built actual attackers during the golden ages because I didn’t really care how much exp they started with.

Attacked Pacal and took his non-tundra cities and then capped him. Just before the end of the war I started whipping galleons and upgraded my exploration caravels to frigates. I capped Pacal a turn before he got printing press and directed him elsewhere because I didn’t want him getting it and trading it around.

I sent my army back east and finished rifling while it was about half way across the continent. Added about five rifles for stack defence and set sail to my next target.

HC had declared on Vicky and then moronically gotten himself capped. Still, having decided to attack HC to get the Great Lighthouse and being an individual who doesn’t like change, I decided to go for these two anyway. Landed next to London and took it. Back on the boats and down to take Canterbury and then Warwick (and possibly one other). HC broke free and Vicky was ready to cap. I’d planned to take York to relieve the cultural pressure on the other captured cities but that would have been another three turns so I took the capitulation and got a former Incan city in the deal. I then moved on to Cuzco for the Great Lighthouse. I took it and HC threw in the towel. I then used Incan culture to land and take one of Sitting Bull’s cities with half my army while the rest went along the coast a bit to take Poverty Point. Sitting Bull capped and I liberated the non-coastal city as it was swamped with culture and no Great Lighthouse trade routes.

After rifling I had gone sci meth and gotten communism. I guess this means that getting my army from Pacal to capping these three jokers had taken perhaps 25 turns. It felt like less because most of my cities are just building wealth as I don’t need more units at the moment. Well I’m sure they’d help but it’s too much effort for too little reward. My losses in the above wars were perhaps one knight, one cannon and three galleons. The galleons died because I got bored and started attacking Incan caravels to see if I could get them to navigation 1.

Other acts of negligence since the last update include accidentally building Angkor Wat and misreading an AP resolution and ending up in a holy war with 23 city Zara. A few turns later I realised I was also at war with his vassal Ragnar. I ended up being able to take a Viking city on an island I shared with him after taking a barb city before getting peace and 100 gold - alls well that ends well I suppose. I also failed to spot that Pacal had gotten the tech I’d directed him to research in trade so he finished printing press. I think he might be responsible for it’s unfortunate proliferation.

I then began the eight or nine turn voyage to the Khmer and their vassal Shaka. I’ve taken a good chunk out of the Khmer - perhaps four of his twenty cities - and Shaka has broken free. I think they’ve got PP but I’m more worried about them getting to chemistry than rifling because that’ll make bringing reinforcements over a bit more treacherous. I lost my super medic chariot to a ballista elephant. This is the first time I’ve seen a ballista elephant be more useful than the common or garden variety.

Just finished physics and whipped some airships so I can see if there’s a massive Khmer stack in the fog. I suspect not but it’ll be reassuring to confirm. I’m thinking about going artillery next because combustion is about fifty turns away even if it would be much more useful.

Nobody has replaceable parts and I think only Ragnar and maybe Zara have chemistry. Pretty sure I can cap most of the map before they get to rifling.

Disclaimer: the above was written on the way back from the pub without access to a computer and the author makes no representation as to its accuracy.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Spoiler Update :

Declared war on Victoria 1390. I believe it's only 12 turns later but several real life hours and Victoria has gone, Huayna stands on the verge of elimination and Sitting Bull waits patiently for a DOW. The war micromanagement is hard to focus on - have lost ~6 cannons in undefended galleons. Ottoman's irritated me by a surprise DOW and taking a city - no real consequence as I got it back the next turn. My tech has slowed down - city maintenance is costing me a fortune - but I'm still competitive. Rifles are going to be in play before the end of the game but I am thinking of Isabella next after SB with Lincoln, Darius and Augustus on that continent to follow and none of them have PP yet. Hoping to avoid the need to fight on Khmer continent at all.

It's a lot of work to win on these maps! Micromanagement of cities has dimished to not much but I'm trying to get each at least vaguely optimised once. 18 workers can 1 turn a workshop...

Spoiler War front :

View attachment 611836

Spoiler Costs :

View attachment 611837

View attachment 611838

Spoiler :

Dear Vicky, here’s where you can stick your constitutional monarchy. Regards, The Sun King

 

[King Younk]

A new question, then I'll get to the previous ones in a few days when I'm by my gaming computer again - why is Charlemagne encouraged to rush Corporations? I know the Rathaus is strong against corruption.... actually, I basically never go for corporations since they cost so much in maintenance. I'm not sure how to make them work for my empire. Can anyone give me a brief synopsis/a few equations?

 

[Fish Man]

A new question, then I'll get to the previous ones in a few days when I'm by my gaming computer again - why is Charlemagne encouraged to rush Corporations? I know the Rathaus is strong against corruption.... actually, I basically never go for corporations since they cost so much in maintenance. I'm not sure how to make them work for my empire. Can anyone give me a brief synopsis/a few equations?

He is not. In fact, usually, corporations are garbage. Where have you heard this??? 10-year-old threads by random people floating around in page 127 of search results aren't necessarily the best source of information.

 

[Lennier]

Corps are OK if you're going for space. Also better on Pangea than water maps. If you put a market, a grocer, a bank, and Wall Street in the Corp HQ city (Sushi+Minig) you can balance out the maintenance costs. But if you're going for domination or conquest, especially on a water map, the time to set up the corps is longer than the payoff time and it's almost always better to just go SP. Unless you're just messing around and want the fun of spreading them.

 

[sampsa]

The main issue with corporations is that they are competing with state property, which is not easy to beat.

 

[sampsa]

Tried the Louis-start. @King Younk I think you could improve your early game a lot. Understanding the early game will make everything so much easier later.

Spoiler :

SIP, worker and AH first, quite obvious with two AH-resources. Farmed a wine, put some turns into roading cow to arrive on pigs 1T before AH in. Marked some good fog busting spots with "x". Marked also some initial thoughts on city spots. Actually forgot at this point that I'm playing a CRE leader. On the wine in the SE is IMO a very obvious 2nd spot. Insta-connected for +2 due to river, +1-cc. Pre-pottery early game is decent due to farmed wines.

Grew capital to 3, seems best with these tiles. On marathon it seems easy to get warriors out before the settler (due to units except settler costing less on marathon), I already have 5 which is easily enough. Put some into a barracks even. Planned 3rd city to the west on wine hill for +1+1cc and 4th to the south, but I changed my mind concerning the latter one later. Tech path AH-mining-BW.

Masonry is in after BW, pottery next. After BW workers are mostly chopping more workers/settlers. Now improving and connecting stone to start Mids in capital and improve fail gold on GW.

It seems very easy to gain XP on marathon. I have one woods2-dude and several woods1. With woodsman2 it was possible to scout a bit further up north without real risk of losing the unit.

T150 4 cities (I think you should have at least 4 at this stage), 5 workers. Probably should have one worker more already and overall worker management could be improved a bit. Should have cows and copper improved already.

Anyway, with Mids the -issues will be gone and cities can grow or whip settlers.