kittenOFchaos: Work to improve Marlas Map + accurate resource placement + other stuff

[TrailblazingScot]

Upgrades to come VERY soon...

1. I'll sort out the dyes, spices and incense resource allocation PROPERLY.
2. Norway to be improved.
3. Barbarians and goody huts allocation to be "sorted".


THE MAPPY:

There are several things I didn't like about Marlas Map:

1. How Britain was done.
2. How Italy was done.
3. How West France was done.
4. Resource allocation which can be modelled on the real world (though, dyes and incense and to a large degree saltpetre are problems due to how firaxis have done things).

In essence I have re-done most of Western Europe in a way which I think is a major improvement in every respect...except it means that Europe appears slightly larger than it should.

The main constraints on that improvement are what is possible to "draw" with the civ3 editor...areas I plan to work on soon to improve is Norway and Sweden, though they are not bad. I wish I could find some way of making Ireland smaller without losing too much detail or making it look crap...what I've done is the best I could at the present time (can't wait for more terrain types and graphics...especially, stuff like swamps, moores and a wide variety of hills).



As for how I determined the resource allocation:
I will provide my sources soon...though because of the constraints of the civ3 system it is to a certain degree arbitary.



Okay...the next few posts will provide:
1. The worldmap as done by me with default rules.

2. The worldmap as done by me with some rules I'm play-testing and would appreciate some other people commenting on.

3. The "Civilisation Placement Tool" FILE to ALLOW you to play with the civs in the right position.

Link to thread where you can download the "Civilisation Placement Tool".
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11829



I would like to thank Marla Singer for his work on his world map for civ3 as it provides the "base" upon which I did this map. In addition I'd thank Grampos for his "civilisation placement tool".

Also I'd like to thank Paul Saunders for this link he provided: http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/civ.html
The information there was of great help in addition to the other sources I used in the allocation of resources.



Hope you enjoy the map...

 

[TrailblazingScot]

This map has the default rules for civ3...any problems just post.

I have used winzip 8.0 to compress the files...

On post 4 of this thread you can download the Civilisation Placement File to use with the Civilisation Placement Tool by Grampos.



NOTE: I have sorted this one out properly...still some custom rules to allow PROPER civ resource placement and one or two of the better ones (like changes to culture awe) left in. Enjoy.

I'd recommend updating to this one...

Version 1 deleted after 50 downloads...

 

[TrailblazingScot]

NOTE: a new version is available on the second post of page 2 of this thread...I will leave this version up for those who find they dislike greatly the changes I have made.

I have setup some customised rules that I want tested to see how they work in providing a better game on the real world map.

I will be playing with this map version that I have done and trying to select the best rules for this "scenario".

Main things to note:

1. Higher research cost.
2. Longer worker job times for mines, irrigation etc.
3. Higher cost to build a worker.
4. Much reduced cost for nukes.
5. Faster ships with reduced cargo capacity.
6. Changes to terrain movement values...with experimentation with sea/ocean movement penalty to try and limit A.I movement over oceans b4 they have the tech.
7. Crippled Zulu, Iroquois and Aztecs as with the Paul Saunders mod: except he has Africans rather than Zulus etc.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12300
8. Changed cultural ratios of awe etc to make culutral flip occur less often, but hopefully to reduce THAT flip during WAR which annoys so many of us.
9. Japanese Samuri doesn't need iron...Japan does have enough local iron for that period in history but she doesn't justify an iron resource in her homeland (as that has other implications). Thus she is given a potential tool to get iron, coal from nearby China (a very powerfully placed civ) by war as in real life (Japanese conquest of Korea especially brought vital resources).

10. Saltpetre...a really tough thing to do well (it WAS very much an organic product in England not a deposit...and it became manufactured later in history...and the Chilean deposit was not the major supplier for England etc). What I did was try to get the historic natural deposits in...then put it in areas of the world where it forms...THEN for certain civs I made sure they'd have it naturally (thus most likely giving them a surplus to trade) AND THEN I decide Paris and other places where due to the amount they produced organically in their cities or that they managed self-sufficiency I provided saltpeter on their start square.

11. FOR the English I made their unique unit not need saltpetre for the simple reason that England could produce enough organically to supply the navy alone if she so desired AND because without the Man-of-War England is a lame duck in the period she should be able to start her colonialism (normally trading resources is a problem, but I've never been able to trade to get saltpeter).

In addition with England I have given them the scientific characteristic in honour of their massive contribution to science and that "expansionistic" is useless for them in the form civ3 does it (i.e lacking any maritime property e.g +1 movement on ships).

12. I changed the hitpoints of conscript veteran, elite etc upwards by 1 point to reduce the number of battles going differently than the stats indicate due to the random element...this hopefully will improve the combat.

13. A change to counter A.I expansion on Tundra etc

14. Changes to reduce the corruption problem being such a major thing for large empires on this huge world map.


NOTE: latest version here...sorted placement of alot more resources AND changed Britain slightly aswell as a few rules tweaked upon playing.

Version 1 removed after 30 downloads.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

This file is required in using the "Civilisation Placement Tool" with my map...

Good luck!

Thread concerning the "Civilisation Placement Tool" or CPT:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11829

My tips on how to use it for my map:


1. Download the map version of mine you want to play.
2. Download the file attached to this post.
3. Download the "Civilisation Placement Tool" http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=131945
4. Extract the 2 files from the "civilisation placement tool" from winzip.
5. load up civ3
6. begin scenario...load up my world map
7. choice your civ and your opponents etc
8. start game...when game begins you'll probably be in the wrong position...THIS is where the CPT comes in.
9. Save the game.
10. Exit civ3.
11. Load the CPT
12. first thing to load up as prompted by the CPT is the saved game of civ3...then load up the CPT file I provide attached to this POST. THEN save the result as a .sav file (give time for the program to work and say "done").
13. load up civ...load up the .sav file produced and play the game THIS time all the civs will be in their correct start sites.

P.S a tutorial thread for CPT...I only just found it...would have saved me time working it out for myself

ENJOY!

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Expect correct placements of horses, dyes, silk, incense and spices later tonight or in the early hours...I plan to move the Chinese and English starting positions too and ALSO improve the saltpetre and oil placements.

 

[Troyens]

At some point in time (200 years ago?) a substitute for saltpeter could be found in. . . urine. Yep, Confederate ladies saved their pee for the war effort in 1861.

Yes, iron was in Japan. Samurai shouldn't need a separate tile.

Your "Main things to note": why would I want higher cost for workers and lower cost for nukes? I prefer the reverse.

Is the CPT required separatly?? With the RSN mod it all came zipped together including the needed batch file.

What exactly did you do to cut down on flipping??




Marla's map has other problems (minor):

The two bulging tiles in the SE corner of New Zealand should be coast.

Too much sea in the southern Pacific.

Adriatic Sea should be a tile further north.

Should add a tile of plains the that corner of the Indian subcontinent in the SW near where it should meet Pakistan.

Hindu Kush, and mountains in western China are off and need work.

I forget if she had a coal tile in Manchuria. Should be one.

Add a grassland where the Chesapeake Bay is much too big.

The Appalachian Mountains are off and also need work.

Hills in Uruguay?? (I'm not sure).

Nullarbor Plain in SW Australia should be desert.

As for Firaxis and Civ III, they should have more than one kind of hill. On her map we find nice green food-producing hills in the Sahara Desert. There should be jungle hills in Borneo. But we have only one kind of hill. No good.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Dude...anything you don't like you can change...but it isn't as easy as you may think as different terrain types have a profound influence on shape of landmasses very often. I'd agree wholeheartedly that it would have been good if there had been a greater number of types of hill, with varying production etc.

For my custom rules I wanted to have a lower nuke cost to allow the possibility of having a nuclear arsenal capable of wrecking an entire empire.

To up the cost of workers and indeed there population cost was to reduce the level of alteration to the world map in the early eras. It doesn't take that long before most the world is irrigated, mined etc...a higher worker cost and increased worker job times may mean such development of the world takes longer as it should. The wildernesses weren't tamed to intensive mining and agriculture as Civ3 has it.



As for the culture flipping...I made changes to all levels of the culture evny, disrepect etc as I thought would reduce the effect of culture in the game...which although it works okay during peace-time goes out of control in war. I also made appropriate changes (in my opinion) to the resistance and propaganda level.

There are a variety of other rules being tested to see how the changes work...including making wealth more useful and also making whipping civilians less so.

All these things are being tested by me, and unfortuantly that takes quite abit of time. If you don't like it, use default map I provide or make your own (and release it to the rest of us if you think it works particularly well.)

P.S did you look at Marlas map b4 the changes I've made...I will post on Wednesday the map with fully corrected resources as I've been researching again, but am busy tonight playing at reality-x.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
Dude...anything you don't like you can change...but it isn't as easy as you may think as different terrain types have a profound influence on shape of landmasses very often. . .

Dude, I DID that for the RSN mod and Marla's map regarding those terrain and geography matters. The game crashed after the first turn. That is why I mentioned those things before completion and posting.

 

[_Impreza_]

Dont change Englands starting position. Make it realistic that way. And leave Chinas position cos then they expand realistically.
Plus why dont you give European civs a special unit called cvolonists to replace workers. Which takes 1 turn and no loss of pop, this can make it easier for europeans to colonize africa before zulus and Canada before iriques etc etc. Plus why do u not use that new tool? Ah. The one letting u have more civs, this can make it excellent for people like me, dont make Ireland small that would suck, i am from Britain and i can tell u Ireland is correct, its bigger than England on its own. Oh yeah and dont make europe too big, i know the need for horses but nothing else really should be added. if u are going to use the tool to add more civs here are some good ones:
Turkey
Arabs
South American indian tribes having alot against them as are zulus etc.
Holland, make this civ expand by enphisising rivers around capitol.
Hungary
Austrians
Denmark

Plus make it more simple to have correct starting positions like marla did. Oh yeah lower cost of workers.
Your map is great. Pls try some of my ideas. Oh yeah we need battlecruisers aswell as battleships. They can be faster but not well and defence. In the early 1900s battlecuisers were essential aswell as dreadnoughts etc. I say you have dreadnoughts and Battlecruisers with the steam engine tec and Battleships normal tec.
Thanks for the map great work.
Cya then

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Thanks for your input!

A BIG HEADS UP to those using my normal version of the map...the resource deployment will have gone a little wrong.

WHEN I put in the resources I changed in the rules what terrain allowed which resource so I could put resources in any terrain I god-damn pleased!

Now since in the normal version the rules are default all those resources appearing in terrain not supposed to have it got wiped... So play with my modified rules and everything will be fine

I will sort this out...and hopefully I'll update soon!

I will also try to make it EVEN easier to do the civ placements...though I think it is very easy from what I've given you.


As for the extra civilisations...perhaps...although this will cause for most massive slowdown...P.S I recommend not playing with America as it unbalances things, but it is upto you.

If I was going to have more civs the Incas, Spanish and Ottomon Turks are probably VERY high on the list of ones to add.



Once I get hold of an atlas (I'm not at home) I'll start with changing areas of the world I haven't been to personally.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Zouave...I've read your suggested changes...but as you never posted the map WITH the changes I couldn't see for myself whether it looked better than before. I have made sure that I have looked at ALL worldmaps drawn for civ3 and all versions to try and determine what was best when I modified western europe.

If you could e-mail me that mappy you did I'll see if it works for me...having looked at what maps I have on my computer I'd agree the Appalachans are too far east and need changed.

P.S I am listing all recommendations and will were I think worthwhile try and forfill them. I believe Marla stopped working on his map despite things that could be done better/differently.

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Possible ideas: could I get some discussion on them...

I'll edit this post when I get a new idea I want discussed:

1. You can allow barbarian chiefdoms to build settlers and workers...has anyone tried allowing this (via the editor) and what have they done with the settlers?

2. Using the hidden nationality flag on submarine units...

 

[TrailblazingScot]

Both the maps updated and better than before in rules and resource placement...I never acted on all the recommendations I've had because I've started modding Operation Flashpoint. I will get around to it (though demand for it...)

 

[Malta]

Yeah, I´m biased as a Malta-fanatic, but this is a rather simple suggestion. For your next update, add a single island square (plains) in the central mediterranean, just SE of Sicily. Malta might not be a world power, but has played a central role in European history several times in the last millenium. I checked it, and it´s easy to add Malta without connection over land to Sicily.
I haven´t checked much of your map yet, but would also suggest that you make the area bordering the nile more fertile. Perhaps you could also make some areas less barren?
And move some of the cattle in northern Germany to Denmark for added realism. Food production is one of my home country´s specialties, after all. Not to mention that they are grouped together a bit too close in Germany...

 

[TrailblazingScot]

ROFL a friend of mine last night suggested I make the Nile more fertile! Remember that is all flood plains...

What I think I'll do for Egypt as per my friends suggestion would be to try and recreate the oasis to the west of the Nile and that way increase their food production.

I suppose I can put Malta in...As for Denmark I'll have a look at it and see whether (looking at the resources I've used to decide resource allocation) Denmark justifies more cattle...

"Danish Bacon, Danish Bacon, yummie, yummie, yummie,yummie, yummie, yum" (from an advert).

I think I will improve Japan soon along the lines that Kal-el did it.

 

[Grath]

after starting a civ on marlas map, absolutely loving it, the hugeness of the map is causing me to lose way too much sleep cuz i have to wait 5 mins inbetween turns, 7 or 8 turns an hour with much wasted time makes it not worth playing , it occured to me that i have to either play a smaller map or get a better puter. is anyone working on a smaller earth map thats of comparable quality to marlas? if not, i might as well have a go at making one. imo marlas map is a thing of beauty and other than shifting around resources and minor gameplay stuff is as close to perfect as one can get and still please everyone. whats needed is something about half the horizontal size of marlas, which would be 128 squares along the equator (isometric view makes the grid fun!) and if my algebra serves me right thatd come out to 25% of the size of marlas, which would make the wait between turns much more bearable. i also havent tried playing on the earth maps that came with the game, i took a look at them in the editor and they looked like crap, oh well.

Grath

 

[Grath]

Originally posted by kittenOFchaos
ROFL a friend of mine last night suggested I make the Nile more fertile! Remember that is all flood plains...

cant help but note that the aswan high dam in egypt curtails the annual flooding of of the nile as well as provides ample water to irrigate the surrounding desert. i dont know if its possible, but perhaps after engineering or a later appropriate advance that desert squares adjacent to flood plains within a city raduis turn into plains? maybe eliminate the disease penalty on the flood plain within the city radius too. weve been building dams for millenia for the primary purpose of preventing flooding so we can put settlements closer to rivers without them getting wiped out every spring and secondly for storing water for irrigation. dams and aqueducts are a popular combination. for absolute realism the flood plain would lose its extra food, but that would then counter the benefit. hydro plants are basically dams but they arguably come too late in the game and it would be nicer to have a growth benefit earlier on, not to mention that earthen dams have been around alot longer than hydroelectric dams. would be a nice touch of realism. thats also why i would suggest an automatic advance effect rather than an improvement, large construction projects like city improvements and especially wonders would produce a large amount of earth to be moved somewhere, why not dump it in the river? although i just realized that since river cities dont need aqueducts, perhaps an aqueduct which has these effects should be available to build in cities near flood plains? that seems appropriate. what do ppl think?
Grath

 

[_Impreza_]

Its very very small compared to India etc which it may not look on the atlas. It is only like that on the atlas cos its something about the slope in the earth etc or something.

 

[_Impreza_]

Let boats go past the suez canal. It is so important to the age of empire and trade it can not be left out then.

 

[Malta]

Yeah, it´s awfully hard to tell the difference between desert and flood plains. I should probably have checked with food/shield icons on.