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Korea vs Babylon for Science Victory?

Joined
Mar 31, 2012
Messages
452
I was wondering which civ would 1st claim it. Both civs have some sort of science bonuses and turtling which I don't know, seem to even off each other in their own way. But I kinda prefer Korea for the medieval UUs as I feel the turtling bonuses are much greater hence a greater possibility to hold off attack waves.

Just saying this because I just won with Korea. Maybe I'm not seeing things right. :p
 
Babylon. Their archer UU gives one the ability to blitz your opponent early game effectively in large quantities, and more importantly, provides you the best to upgrade them to riflemen when the time comes.

Also, having a free GS when you get Writing is boss.
 
I was wondering which civ would 1st claim it. Both civs have some sort of science bonuses and turtling which I don't know, seem to even off each other in their own way. But I kinda prefer Korea for the medieval UUs as I feel the turtling bonuses are much greater hence a greater possibility to hold off attack waves.

Just saying this because I just won with Korea. Maybe I'm not seeing things right. :p

Babylon has the potential to be stronger, because Great Scientists are very exploitable, but Babylon requires more set-up to work, since you need to focus on GPs and are more reliant than Korea on getting specific Wonders (mainly Hagia Sofia). I like the Hwacha, I admit, but Babylon has the advantage of a stronger early defence at the stage of the game when you're most likely to be wiped out by an attack - into the medieval period you should be able to survive more easily, particularly since your science advantages will be coming to fruition by that point, so you should start to get ahead in military technology.

But Korea has the advantage of flexibility - Babylon doesn't gain particularly going for anything but science victories, and as above forces you into a particular type of strategy that is not particularly well-suited for other win conditions. Korea's specialist advantage can be harnessed for most victory conditions, giving you accelerated research to some extent even if loading up on artists or merchants. And the Hwacha is a reasonable offensive UU, since it's high ranged strength compensates to some extent for its drawback against cities.
 
Hard to say. would say Babylon can get more great scientists than Korea RA-like boosts and will therefore be faster in theory. The UU even allows for easy early conquest, which helps to have a standing flurishing empire earlier.
 
Babylon seems better for pure science wins, while Korea augment all victory conditions including cultural due to getting extra science from each specialist and GP tile improvement.

I tend to exclusively play Korea with cultural wins from rationalism, they excell at pulling that of very nicely.

Hwachas are also my favorite UU, they are crazy powerful for turtling while pursuing a culture or science win.
 
This is an important question, because I haven't bought either DLC yet. Need to know which to get, or whether even to bother.
 
Babylon is generally considered stronger, but it forces you to play a great people strategy. Korea is not weak in any way, more flexible and comes with a scenario (and is offered in a bundle with the wonders of the ancient world DLC (another scenario ofr about the same price as babylon)).
 
Babylon is generally considered stronger, but it forces you to play a great people strategy. Korea is not weak in any way, more flexible and comes with a scenario (and is offered in a bundle with the wonders of the ancient world DLC (another scenario ofr about the same price as babylon)).

Also, if you're going to be playing other Civs as well as Korea, it's worth thinking of how the AI civs work. Babylon does moderately as an AI civ, but makes no use of its abilities and I haven't formed much of an impression of Nebuchadnezzar. Sejong is interesting to play with - Korea usually does well as an AI and when Sejong's around you can get a generally peaceful and reliable AI partner (not to mention one who'll bug you a lot for RAs).

Ironically, Wonders of the Ancient World will generally favour Babylon more due to the Mausoleum of Helicarnassus bonus and the unique archers that make Temple of Artemis a possible early pick, but I recommend getting it generally - the Wonders in it are well-balanced and (except for the Statue) interesting, and add interesting options.
 
Looks like there are 102 wonders in the mods. Would it make more sense just to install some of the mods and keep your money?
 
For science victories: Definitely Babylon

I lost track of all the Great Scientists I generated on the way to my earliest science victory ever (by several decades).
 
Looks like there are 102 wonders in the mods. Would it make more sense just to install some of the mods and keep your money?

Third party mods? Not if you're interested in the strategy forums. You're basically talking about playing a different game. You can get a lot of content with third party mods, but it has nothing to do with competitive game play, achievements, etc.
 
Babylon is the best civ in the game b/c of how op'ed there science is.

Korea is good for a culture game. All your academies give you extra science, but other than that they're just overrated. THe Hwatcha is useuless even for turtling b.c of how quickly they become obeolete. And the turtle ship is abosolutely useless.

Also who ever said Korea is more flexible is completely mistaken. The Babylon bowman allows for a great early rush (honor start). the UU combined with babylon walls make for impenetrable cities allowing you to rapidly expand w.o worry about being taken out (liberty start). Use the GS's to bulb rifles and warmonger (autocracy). Use your superior science to build a vast empire crossing the seas (order) or abuse the GS to win through science (freedom). Plus the GS at writting is useful for any strategy.

Overall Babylon is the best civ in the game and one of the most flexible. It just that there UA is so OP'ed it makes them seem ridgid. I mean come on whos not going to abuse getting GS 50% faster.
 
With both civs running 2 scientists as soon as they have universities up and no other modifiers to the number of GS points, it'd take Korea 17 turns for that first GS and only 12 turns for Babylon.

Babylon's science specialists generate 95.76 beakers (72 + 33% bonus from University) in the 12 turns generate it's 2nd GS.

Korea's science specialists generate 159.6 beakers (120 + 33% bonus from University) in those same 12 turns.

Here's the catch. If Korea bought a library while building the Great library as well, both civs beelined Education before getting any other techs, didn't get a free tech from a ruins, Korea would get a could get 2 RA's worth of boost on top of the free tech from the GL. Let's say the tech order for both went Pottery, Writing, Animal Husbandry, Trapping, Calender, Philosophy with the timing such that the GL gives Civil Service, Theology, Education. Let's also say they both finish Philosophy 1 turn before the GL finishes and Korea buys a library for the tech boost. That would put the boost at the median value of (Sailing+The Wheel)/2*.5, which is (55+55)/2*.5 = 110/2*.5 = 55*.5 = 27.5 beaker bonus into Theology from the library and another 27.5 beakers into Theology from the GL's boost the next turn. That's a total of 20% of Theology finished from the bonuses. Therefore Korea should be able to finish education at least 1-2 turns before Babylon, if Babylon doesn't use its free GS to build an Academy nor to bulb Education.

Now let's say Korea did get to education 2 turns before Babylon, because of the boosts mentioned previously and both civs had enough cash to buy the University as soon as it is unlocked. Then by the time Babylon generates a GS from running 2 scientist Korea would have generated 14 turns of of beakers from its specialists instead of only 12 turns. That's 140*1.33 = 186.2 beakers or 90.44 more beakers than Babylon. On top of that Korea got another boost from buying the University. Since no other techs were researched at this point, the median would be between Sailing and Archery since Mining, Archery, Sailing and The Wheel are the only available techs to research. That makes the median value (55+35)/2*.5 = 22.5 or 40.9% of sailing completed.

Now if both civs beeline to Astronomy after education, by the time Babylon generates a GS Korea will have generated enough extra beakers from the specialists and the boost 22.5 boost buying the University gave to have 18% of compass researched. While Babylon's extra beakers would only get them to 47.9% of Optics.

Since it'll take Korea 17 turns to generate a GS and they have a 2 turn head start in this example, they're 1st generated GS would come 3 turns after Babylon's 1st generated GS. That's an additional 39.9 beakers for Korea and 23.94 for Babylon. So Babylon would have another 28% into Optics while Korea would have another 10.6% into Compass.

Yes I realize this isn't counting the beakers from population size, because I'm basing this off both civs having just 1 city and equal population and growth rates. In other words, I'm only comparing the bonus beakers each civ would earn in this time frame from a single university. I know I also did not count the bonus GS points from the GL.

Now let's look at both civs having built a total of 4 cities all with a university running 2 scientist each and we're at the point where Babylon just generated its 2nd GS, so the cost of the next one is 300 GPP. For argument's sake we'll say the University in the 2-4th cites just finished, so all 4 cities have 0 GS points built up. Just from the GS points the specialist generate it would take 34 turns to generate the next GS.

Babylon: 34 turns with 8 scientists generating 3 beakers each multiplied by the 33% bonus from the university comes to a total of 1085.28 bonus beakers.

Korea: 34 turns with 8 scientists generating 5 beakers each multiplied by the 33% bonus from the university comes to a total of 1808.8 bonus beakers.

Korea generates 723.52 more bonus beakers than Babylon over those 34 turns.

If at this point both civs have the Rationalism policies for +2 beakers per specialist and to make the University give +50% instead of +33% here's how much the differences become.

Babylon: 34 turns with 8 scientists generating 5 beakers each multiplied by the 50% bonus from the university comes to a total of 2040 bonus beakers.

Korea: 34 turns with 8 scientists generating 7 beakers each multiplied by the 50% bonus from the university comes to a total of 2856 bonus beakers.

Korea Generates 816 more bonus beakers than Babylon over those 34 turns.

Conclusion:
If both civs sign the same number of RAs on the same turn, the bonuses Korea gets from running specialists and the RA like bonus from the science buildings built in the capital, both civs save all their GSs for the last techs needed to win the game and both civs have the same number of built cities and puppets, Korea should be at least 3-4 techs ahead of Babylon when they start using the GS's to bulb, in part because by the time they build/buy the public school and research lab in the capital, they should have both the porcelain tower and rationalism opener, making those boosts worth an extra median tech each . This tech lead from the boosts and bonus beakers also means Korea will have the University, Public School and Research Lab built/bought in its cities before Babylon unlocks those buildings. Thus, even though Babylon get's a 50% bonus to GS generation and the free one at Writing, Korea can get all their science specialists in sooner, thus increasing the bonus beaker gap and getting their fewer GS's sooner. Therefore, Korea could, theoretically beat Babylon to a science victory since their bonus beakers and tech boosts from buildings should more than make up for only generating 2/3 the number of GSs.
 
Correction to a couple of posts above, Hwachas do not become obsolete too fast, they have a far longer lifespan than any other ranged UU.

They don't need upgrading to cannons, and will easilly last until artilery.

If you learn how to run a full specialist economy, which is filling as many specialist slots as possible as opposed to only using scientist slots, Korea can outclass any other civs tech rate. 2000+ BPT is possible with Korea by 1800 AD and just 4-5 cities, no one else can gain a higher BPT. You can already see 6 turn future techs while you are only just entering the modern era, Korea doesn't need to use bulbs to keep their tech rare high.

Babylon are essentially a one trick pony, they get lots of great scientists, and they get them faster than anyone else. But Korea are far more adaptable to any victory condition.

Regarding the turtle ship being crap, so are walls of babylon. Though if you ever have any coastal cites as Korea, those turtle ships come in very handy for dealing with DOWs, especially when combined with Hwachas. I prefer to prevent enemy units from being able to attack my cities, rather than relying on defensive buildings.

My simple differentiation between the two is that Babylon is for bulbing, Korea is for settling. Why bother saving GSs to bulb end game techs when Korea can reach 2000+ BPT and tech them in so little time?
 
Ok, so bhavv said it with a lot fewer words than I did, but it's the same point. I just hope by showing just the difference 2 scientists per city can be with Korea's UA that folks could see how much stronger that becomes when running more specialists of every type.

Also keep in mind that puppets do run merchant specialists even though you can't see them in the specialist slots when viewing the city. You can tell this by seeing how many citizens are shown as working tiles. So if a puppet has 6 citizens and only 4 are working tiles, the other 2 are either specialists or unemployed. With Korea's UA it doesn't matter if the citizen is a specialist in one of the slots or unemployed, both give the +2 beakers (+4 with Secularism).
 
In the early game before getting any specialist slots, I often assign plain specialists with Korea. You can see 21 turn techs on epic coming down to just 14-16 turns, and even before you have access to universities.

The temple specialist slot is also good to use, every slot is. With Korea you focus on the following things:

1) Tall empire with however many cities you can grow to 22+ size (6 maximum with several luxuries and high food sites).
2) Population growth, use maritime CSs if needed, granaries and watermills also help
3) Every building which provides specialist slots, don't build any core cities on hills.
4) Full freedom tree and secularism asap (yes you build culture buildings, they have specialist slots).
5) Statue of Liberty is the most important thing in the game for this, get it up as fast as possible
6) With freedom filled, statue of lib, and large enough cities, put every possible citizen into a specialist slot, each one gives +2 production and +4 science on top of its normal benefits
*7) - optional - uber micromanage your specialist slots to pop multiple GPs. Get 4 GPs each time rather than just farming GSs. Settle every one wherever you have enough population to work them.

4 cites with 1 or 2 observatories, or 5 without observaties will exceed 2000 BPT, plus 60+ production per city. Happiness will be in excess of 40 with the freedom policies.

Bulbs are not needed, neither is a single CS or puppet city.
 
Regarding the turtle ship being crap, so are walls of babylon. Though if you ever have any coastal cites as Korea, those turtle ships come in very handy for dealing with DOWs, especially when combined with Hwachas. I prefer to prevent enemy units from being able to attack my cities, rather than relying on defensive buildings.

Walls of Babylon combined with Bowmen (or some other ranged unit) are actually quite nice for dealing for those like myself is first tactic is to draw the enemy into city bombard range as the initial kill zone.
(Increased city bombard compared to normal walls in addition to stronger defense; later stacks with other defense structures)

Playing anybody, a naval unit in port moving and running over an embarked unit and then getting back to port before end of movement is also nice.
 
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