Korea vs Babylon for Science Victory?

[Mesix]

Couldn't the best finish times in the HoF for each civ be a proxy for the performance of the best players under good conditions?

The HOF has just recently been updated to allow DLC. There isn't much data in the tables for Korea/Babylon yet. If enough people compete on good map conditions with these civs, then perhaps it could provide an indicator.

 

[Browd]

What's the "RA glitch"?

Prior to the Fall patch, G&K RAs were double counting beaker overflow. You could generate thousands of extra beakers when your RA resolved (whether or not you knew about the glitch; if you knew, it was massively exploitable).

 

[Mohed]

Only if you took a GS from Liberty which Korea can do as well, because you can't possibly have had the universities up and manned long enough to generate 2 more GS's before Korea generates 1. The UA is generate GS's 50% faster, not 100%.

Babylon would get the universities up faster tho, because of a faster education.

 

[Anonimoustester]

It completely depends on the difficulty you are playing, map, your neighbours. that is because babylon needs either filling their scientists slots whose population could be used to increase production or food, and/or building wonders which give great scientist points. Meaning babylon cannot use its bonuses on higher difficulties (immortal and deity) due to advantage that AI gets at the start.

Also bowmen are good against early rushes and barbarians but have very short life span due to composite bowmen while koreans special land unit has a very good use and a long life span making Korea more logical choice in higher difficulties

 

[chazzycat]

you're like the 5th person in this thread to totally forget about Babylon's free scientist at writing, which is absolutely HUGE.

 

[Catan_Settler]

I think Babylon is better early to mid game, but Korea's will surpass them over the long haul. There's just no way a merchant or artist with a bonus couple beakers prior to Education/Universities is going to outpace an Academy planted on turn 20. Just, no way. That being said, 2 bonus beakers *per specialist* and *per great improvement* over the course of the game, will be more beakers than 2 or 3 extra Academies (maybe 4, max over the whole game). I'm sure you can statistically work out a best case scenario where Korea is almost keeping pace with Babylon early on, but that's just on paper. In practice, Babylon will take the early lead. Are people not planting their Academies on bonus tiles? Deer, wheat, cows, sheep are my favorite places for them. For instance a grassland deer will be giving you 4 food and 8 beakers with your granary built. This is on turn 20, remember. Korea comes on strong later and can catch up, but the early game science lead is clearly in babylon's favor.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

I think Babylon is better early to mid game, but Korea's will surpass them over the long haul. There's just no way a merchant or artist with a bonus couple beakers prior to Education/Universities is going to outpace an Academy planted on turn 20. Just, no way. That being said, 2 bonus beakers *per specialist* and *per great improvement* over the course of the game, will be more beakers than 2 or 3 extra Academies (maybe 4, max over the whole game). I'm sure you can statistically work out a best case scenario where Korea is almost keeping pace with Babylon early on, but that's just on paper. In practice, Babylon will take the early lead. Are people not planting their Academies on bonus tiles? Deer, wheat, cows, sheep are my favorite places for them. For instance a grassland deer will be giving you 4 food and 8 beakers with your granary built. This is on turn 20, remember. Korea comes on strong later and can catch up, but the early game science lead is clearly in babylon's favor.

there's something a little more strategic and subtle here. babylon can get more GS's sure but they tend to be a steady stream over the course of a game after you get Unis. since you can pop one for an immediate boost you are also more flexible in timing certain techs/events. Korea can put out way more raw bpt in mid-late game but Babylon can time entry into eras to allow access to social policies or popping sci theory earlier for rush bought Public Schools.

if the goal is ultimately the fastest sci vic it's nominal at best who is better. both can win sub-250 at deity but if it becomes 232 vs 227 or whatever it is largely due to random things like ruins, terrain, and opponents.

 

[Mesix]

There wasn't enough participation in the month that I had my challenge running to make a definitive comparison, but if more people submit games, perhaps the cream will rise to the top. Currently, the best finish time was played on Prince level as Babylon. I'm sure that there are some Korea players who can beat a turn 218 finish...no?

 

[Vintage Port]

It completely depends on the difficulty you are playing, map, your neighbours. that is because babylon needs either filling their scientists slots whose population could be used to increase production or food, and/or building wonders which give great scientist points. Meaning babylon cannot use its bonuses on higher difficulties (immortal and deity) due to advantage that AI gets at the start.

I've read this over and over and struggle to understand what you are saying, especially the bolded.

You always want to fill your science specialist spots when doing a science victory, especially on the higher levels.

Also I have yet to play Babylon or Korea and I'm due up for a Science Victory. Only problem is I want to give it a go on Immortal otherwise this challenge would definitely interest me.

 

[Light Cleric]

I forget if you can use the in-game editor to switch your civilization. If so, it'd be a good way to test them by using identical maps.

This might be helpful because turn times don't tell the whole story, namely how important Babylon's early bonuses can be. Bowmen and WoB make it sooooooo much easier for Bablyon to survive those early Deity AI DoWs while still going straight for Philosophy. Bablyon kind of wins by default if Korea gets killed

 

[Catan_Settler]

It completely depends on the difficulty you are playing, map, your neighbours. that is because babylon needs either filling their scientists slots whose population could be used to increase production or food, and/or building wonders which give great scientist points. Meaning babylon cannot use its bonuses on higher difficulties (immortal and deity) due to advantage that AI gets at the start.

Also bowmen are good against early rushes and barbarians but have very short life span due to composite bowmen while koreans special land unit has a very good use and a long life span making Korea more logical choice in higher difficulties

Sorry, what? Everyone needs a couple food to fill a specialist slot, and the scientist slots don't come until Education. Korea doesn't magically get extra food. This post makes no sense. Higher difficulties have little to do with Babylon's special ability, other than the fact that your odds of getting the Great Library and/or the Oracle would be reduced. Your best case scenario with Babylon is getting both of those, at which point you'd be getting 3 GS points per turn, which is the equivalent of one more scientist slot. I suppose you are saying, those three extra GS points are hard to get in the ancient/classical era on higher difficulties. Ok. But that's not their special ability. Their special ability is 50% more great scientist points *throughout the entire game* as well as a free Great Scientist at Writing which is ~ turn 20, possibly late 20s if you decide to go for Archery first.

 

[OwlRaider]

Can't believe that this thread is still going... Both Korea and Babylon are awfully similar in pretty much everything. The bonuses are slightly different but they achieve the same goal, just in different timings that the player has to adjust to, that's all. Also, I've a lot of people here talk about how Babylon is a 1 trick pony while Korea is versatile, that's simply false. Babylon is as versatile as Korea because every civ, no matter the victory condition, fills all their great scientist slots and usually nothing else unless you got huge cities that you simply ran out of room. So in that case Korea and Babylon are pretty similar, as you won't be filling every single specialist slot as Korea, only scientists and perhaps artists if going for a culture victory. Also, because science is the focal point of every match, no matter the victory condition, great scientists, especially early on, are more important than any other great person, though later great artists become equally if not more important if pursuing a culture victory. So in that sense, again, Babylon's UA evens out with Korea, which leaves both civilizations as very versatile thanks to their massive science lead over everyone else, and with said science lead the flexibility to do whatever you want with it.

In case I wasn't clear, I was referring to high difficulty games, so Immortal+Deity, perhaps Emperor too. In lower difficulties it simply doesn't matter as much since the AI is too weak to be of any real concern. So basically, the main difference between Korea and Babylon is not in their flexibility but only in play style. As Babylon you generally want to rush writing ASAP, only getting the luxury techs you can work immediately(or settled on), and you can also afford to significantly delay construction since your Bowmen are almost as good as CBs. As Korea on the other hand rushing Writing is not as big a deal so you can get a few more luxury techs early or rush construction if needed. Also as Korea you can decide to not use CBs at all but instead use Catapults and turn them into H'wachas ASAP for beastly defensive units that can switch to the offensive in a pinch. The disadvantage is obvious, you generally don't want to rush Physics so it's far from an optimal tech path. On the other hand it gives you a much stronger army for later, since H'wachas upgrade into the siege line while CBs upgrade into the archery line, losing range at Gatling Guns and eventually merging into Mechanized Infantry at the very end. So those early H'wachas, if you manage to not get them killed, will eventually become the almighty Artillery and Rocket Artillery, which is by far the best ground unit in the game, basically Longbowmen on steroids.

So again, just potential differences in play style. Neither Korea nor Babylon has a clear upper hand against the other.

 

[guinsoo]

I don't know about the HOF challenges and how Korea and Babylon fare there. But I have played a good chunk of both on Immortal, and I think Babylon is faster/better. This is just my anecdotal evidence from playing - Babylon gets you to your crucial techs the fastest, so you get your beakers up faster. I regularly win ~10 turns faster with Babylon than with any other civ.

As far as flexibility - Babylon gets a massive science per turn edge starting at around turn 15-20. And it requires Pottery, which you almost always want first anyway, and Writing which you're gonna need. How is this not a super flexible civ??? You can play them any way you want from here.

 

[anthropophage]

The early academy is a massive boost, you treble your BPT at turn 20. It makes Babylon very powerful early in the game allowing you to be first to whatever techs you need to pursue your preferred VC.