Korea

[pineappledan]

I didn't want to suggest anything that would create a lot of work, like new tile improvement graphics. That is unless you're volunteering yourself for 3D work.

My original thought was that the Seowon could give +1 to Academies, scaling with the distance from the city (ie. 3 on the 3rd tile ring). Simply giving a bonus for being not adjacent seemed easier to code though.
Of course, if it were to remain as a UB, there would have to be more to it than a bonus to academies, because you are likely to have only a few academies on empire. I like it because it gives a game mechanic that hooks into real historicity, but then the gameplay utility would need to be motivated by some less situational buff.

 

[Hinin]

I didn't want to suggest anything that would create a lot of work, like new tile improvement graphics. That is unless you're volunteering yourself for 3D work.

My original thought was that the Seowon could give +1 to Academies, scaling with the distance from the city (ie. 3 on the 3rd tile ring). Simply giving a bonus for being not adjacent seemed easier to code though.
Of course, if it were to remain as a UB, there would have to be more to it than a bonus to academies, because you are likely to have only a few academies on empire. I like it because it gives a game mechanic that hooks into real historicity, but then the gameplay utility would need to be motivated by some less situational buff.

I agree. What do you think about my proposition for the Hwacha ? That would also provide an interesting way to incentivize building Academies in a less conservative way (is it too processor intensive ?).

I would be quite happy to talk more about Korea in general : I've found it to be one of the few civs that taste very bland ingame. Not weak (late-game Korea is famous), but just not very interesting I think. The UA has enough elements to be potent, but the UC (both of them) could be discussed.

For example, I have two grips with the Hwach'a. Its design is simple, which is a plus, but :

• "Double attacks" on UUs, even though they are powerful, are very bland
• The idea of a "defensive artillery", combined with the double attacks, means that you mostly want the unit in order to later upgrade it. Plus, its usage as an anti-personnel siege unit during the Medieval Era is quickly put down by the return of the maluses against things other than cities when upgraded : the legacy of the UU isn't really kept (Siege units with Logistics not being that rare starting the Renaissance/Industrial eras).

 

[pineappledan]

I’m fine with the hwacha. I’m not on the anti-logistics bandwagon. I agreed with taking it off the slinger and Chu ko nu mostly because there were 4 UUs all with the same bonus. I disagreed with removing it from the SotL, because there were just 1 land and sea unit left with the bonus. Removing it from the hwa’cha isn’t about balance as far as I’m concerned, it’s about completionism.

you got me thinking about how you could do a seowon GPTI; I bet you could do a bit of re-texturing on the forbidden palace wonder and use that, like the Kuna/chichen itza.

 

[Hinin]

I’m fine with the hwacha. I’m not on the anti-logistics bandwagon. I agreed with taking it off the slinger and Chu ko nu mostly because there were 4 UUs all with the same bonus. I disagreed with removing it from the SotL, because there were just 1 land and sea unit left with the bonus. Removing it from the hwa’cha isn’t about balance as far as I’m concerned, it’s about completionism.

you got me thinking about how you could do a seowon GPTI; I bet you could do a bit of re-texturing on the forbidden palace wonder and use that, like the Kuna/chichen itza.

It's less about being against the double attack in principle (if that was the case, I would be against your idea for reworked Mongolia), and more about seeing it as a "too easy" solution (like adding a unique luxury resource in each civ kit) when used so casually for a UU. In the case of the Hwacha, I find that having the most important UU of a civ "very good when it's not the Hwacha anymore" is a bit sad (inherited from base Civ V, I know, but still). Plus, Logistics is such a primordial promotion for ranged units that granting it freely doesn't create anything special in term of gameplay choice : you just have more quickly something you would have taken anyway. Finally, the fact the UU is one of the few Siege units synergizing well with the Field promotion tree but comes back at being an anti-city specialist just after is wasted potential I think. All the anti-personnel theme of the unit is contained in its core stats and absent maluses, and none in its promotion.

Concerning the GPTI, I'm a bit less conservative on that front since I'm currently learning blender for the Ainu mod, but I understand your concern. Using a recolored version of the FP seems a good idea though.

 

[CrazyG]

I really like that the Seowon unlocks earlier. It's not that useful if you play him typical tradition, but Korea is fairly flexible and a lot of that flexibility comes from it unlocking earlier. The tech tree is very different when you don't need education for universities, you can reach military units much faster and H'wacha are strong.

I think the 15% during golden ages is fine. If you try authority or progress Korea, this bonus is much much better than a few chip yields on an academy will be.

 

[pineappledan]

I really like that the Seowon unlocks earlier. It's not that useful if you play him typical tradition

Right, that bonus doesn't count for much if you went Tradition and are beelining Mosque of Djenne anyways. Which is pretty hard to resist due to its +10% on GAs. It certainly undercuts that early unlock bonus for what I presume is most Korea games for most people, unless you play them very differently from me.

I think the 15% during golden ages is fine. If you try authority or progress Korea, this bonus is much much better than a few chip yields on an academy will be.

But then why is it on the UB instead of the UA? Would it not be preferable if the UB offered a different tool or focus rather than reinforcing "get more GAs", because now you have +% GPPs AND Science?

I get that the UB is strong, but it is in lockstep with the UA, and fails to offer anything new. It also fails to model some aspect of the IRL seowon through gameplay

 

[CrazyG]

Right, that bonus doesn't count for much if you went Tradition and are beelining Mosque of Djenne anyways. Which is pretty hard to resist due to its +10% on GAs. It certainly undercuts that early unlock bonus for what I presume is most Korea games for most people, unless you play them very differently from me.

So don't beeline the Mosque and get a different wonder instead. You can take mosques as your follower belief (you want them in other cities anyways). Angkor Wat or Notre Dame are good alternatives, for example. A mosque everywhere + Mandir/Cathedral only in the capital is better than the reverse IMO. There's no shortage of worthwhile wonders.

But then why is it on the UB instead of the UA? Would it not be preferable if the UB offered a different tool or focus rather than reinforcing "get more GAs", because now you have +% GPPs AND Science?

I guess so but I don't see it as a major problem. Also this exact logic applies to an academy buff.

I get that the UB is strong, but it is in lockstep with the UA, and fails to offer anything new. It also fails to model some aspect of the IRL seowon through gameplay

I don't agree that it fails to offer anything new.

Unlocking earlier supports the H'wacha and aggression really well. None of the other civs with a medieval UU have a focus on science and he's the only civ with a siege unit UU. Skipping drama and poetry + education but still having universities can easily mean getting gunpowder like 12+ turns earlier.

 

[Melchizedek]

I really like that the Seowon unlocks earlier. It's not that useful if you play him typical tradition, but Korea is fairly flexible and a lot of that flexibility comes from it unlocking earlier. The tech tree is very different when you don't need education for universities, you can reach military units much faster and H'wacha are strong.

Maybe, but if you're Korea your writers guilds generate science, so why get Philosophy without getting D&P? And once you have both Philosophy and D&P, Education is the fastest way to get more science by entering the Medieval Era. I get that being able to tech fast while unlocking the military part of the tree is strong, but is it strong enough to justify skipping D&P and Education if you have to get Philosophy anyway and your UA shines through specialists and era advance? Maybe the Seowan should unlock at Writing. It's not like you'd build it right away at that hammer cost anyway, but it would be more flexible. It could also be an interesting use for an early Engineer.

 

[CrazyG]

Maybe, but if you're Korea your writers guilds generate science, so why get Philosophy without getting D&P? And once you have both Philosophy and D&P, Education is the fastest way to get more science by entering the Medieval Era. I get that being able to tech fast while unlocking the military part of the tree is strong, but is it strong enough to justify skipping D&P and Education if you have to get Philosophy anyway and your UA shines through specialists and era advance? Maybe the Seowan should unlock at Writing. It's not like you'd build it right away at that hammer cost anyway, but it would be more flexible. It could also be an interesting use for an early Engineer.

For humans unlocking at writing might be fine but for AI on high difficulties it would cause problems.

Yes I think it's sometimes worth skipping drama and poetry too. If you want to fight a medieval era war you life is so much easier if you get there before castles are built and Korea is pretty good at doing that. You already have specialists slots so you don't need guilds for , and with both the Seowon and Temples unlocked at philosophy I find most cities have plenty to spend on anyways. I've done this in many games, its a solid build order that leaves you in a strong position.

Feel free to play a game twice, once with D&P + Education, and once without, and let me know how medieval era wars go. I assure you that unlocking weapons 10~ turns earlier makes a really big difference.

Basically all of the (somewhat limited) variety Korea has comes from the Seowon unlocking earlier. I'd prefer it stay for that reason, even if you play tradition Korea it doesn't hurt you in any way. As tradition I build it earlier too and I'm confused why other people wouldn't, it's a really good building.

 

[Legen]

But then why is it on the UB instead of the UA? Would it not be preferable if the UB offered a different tool or focus rather than reinforcing "get more GAs", because now you have +% GPPs AND Science?

I get that the UB is strong, but it is in lockstep with the UA, and fails to offer anything new. It also fails to model some aspect of the IRL seowon through gameplay

I guess so but I don't see it as a major problem. Also this exact logic applies to an academy buff.

Of the +15% science during GAs, I see an issue in that Korea has plenty of bonuses tied to GAs, more than any other civ, that the civ's balance revolves heavily on how easily GAs can be sustained. On patches in which permanent GAs were the go to strategy, Korea was considered overpowered.

Another issue that I have from a long time is that the +% GPP makes Korea more similar to Babylon, with both already having a shared focus on SV. I think Korea should have something else to keep them distinct.

This gives me an idea for how Seowon could boost academies that aren't adjacent to your city.

BNW's Korea had a +2 science bonus to GPTIs. Why not add it back as part of the Seowon in place of something else? A bonus not tied to GAs would also fit well with Seowon being unlocked earlier. It could be like this:

UA - loses +%GPP on GAs, gain +% science on GAs from Seowon.
UB - replace +% science on GAs for +2 science on GPTI, or a bigger value on academies only.

 

[pineappledan]

I think @Legen has cut to the heart of it. I think his idea would be an improvement on the current situation:

Korea is fairly flexible and a lot of that flexibility comes from it unlocking earlier. The tech tree is very different when you don't need education for universities

Skipping drama and poetry + education but still having universities can easily mean getting gunpowder like 12+ turns earlier.

You have convinced me that the early unlock is a good and useful buff, but I you have not convinced me that the Seowon should have it. I don’t see how it is congruent with what the UB is supposed to represent in-game. As I said, the oldest Seowon was founded in 1542, that's later than comparable institutions like the Madrasa or
universities of western/near east societies. If we can agree on a set of bonuses for the Seowon that doesn't include an early unlock then I would consider that a success as far as realism.

Taking @Legen's suggestions, here is my proposal:
Scholars of the Jade Hall
+1 Science from Specialists, increasing by +1 in Medieval, Industrial, and Atomic Eras. +20% Science during Golden Ages, and +50 Golden Age Points when a Great Person is born, scaling with Era.

Seowon
unlocked at Education
32
+1 to jungle and snow tiles
+50% of the city's Per turn as an instant boost whenever a citizen is born
+2 to Academies and +2 to all other Great Person Tile Improvements near the City
+1 to Great Works in the City

increasing from 15% to 20% science seems fair because it is a UA, so more power is justifiable. Also, it gives symmetry with the 20% given by a base golden age.

 

[CrazyG]

ou have convinced me that the early unlock is a good and useful buff, but I you have not convinced me that the Seowon should have it. I don’t see how it is congruent with what the UB is supposed to represent in-game. As I said, the oldest Seowon was founded in 1542, that's later than comparable institutions like the Madrasa or
universities of western/near east societies. If we can agree on a set of bonuses for the Seowon that doesn't include an early unlock then I would consider that a success as far as realism.

I understand the realism argument, but given that the Madrasah isn't in VP you just end up cutting an interesting feature from the game.

Scholars of the Jade Hall
+1 Science from Specialists, increasing by +1 in Medieval, Industrial, and Atomic Eras. +20% Science during Golden Ages, and +50 Golden Age Points when a Great Person is born, scaling with Era.

Seowon
unlocked at Education
32
+1 to jungle and snow tiles
+50% of the city's Per turn as an instant boost whenever a citizen is born
+2 to Academies and +2 to all other Great Person Tile Improvements near the City
+1 to Great Works in the City

increasing from 15% to 20% science seems fair because it is a UA, so more power is justifiable. Also, it gives symmetry with the 20% given by a base golden age.

Okay, I'm on board. I can get behind making him less like Babylon (less like Arabia too).

I like :

• +2 instead of 2. This makes Korea more unique, it's less similar to the Arabian Bazaar and Babylon has no bonus at all
• 20% during in the UA (your explanation is great)

I'm concerned:

• Overall I think he's losing more than he gains from these changes (that's without considering where the Seowon unlocks).
• Buffs to academies specifically. I find it hard to use scientists as Korea and he buffs all specialists equally.

Ideas:

• Make the UA +1 to specialists (no scaling), and add another +1 to specialists from the Seowon. This takes a lot less text and helps normalize his late game (which with +4 to specialists is really janky). It creates some wiggle room to buff his early game, which currently sucks.
• +111 to Great Works and GPTI (make it symmetrical and provide some valuable non- yields).
  
• I still think it should unlock at philosophy unless some other civ is given the bonus just because it's fun. It's something that distinguishes him from Babylon/Arabia.

I'm glad to see a return of the pineapple avatar BTW.

 

[pineappledan]

Madrasah isn't in VP you just end up cutting an interesting feature from the game.

I know, I was just referring to certificate-giving centres for higher education. I used to have a Madrasa for Arabia in 4UC, but I replaced it with a different thing (it's still a university replacement though)

Buffs to academies specifically. I find it hard to use scientists as Korea and he buffs all specialists equally

Fair. I was just spitballing

Make the UA +1 to specialists (no scaling), and add another +1 to specialists from the Seowon. This takes a lot less text and helps normalize his late game (which with +4 to specialists is really janky). It creates some wiggle room to buff his early game, which currently sucks.

The Industrial/Atomic bumps don't really move the needle, so it's neither here nor there to me. I'm perfectly happy to keep the specialist bonus yields limited to the UA just to keep the UA and UB cleanly separated.

Making the yields not scale would require a change to DLL code; VP alters the existing bonus yields to specialist table. I created non-scaling yields for specialists for a custom civ (Sumer), but I had to use a dummy policy to do it.

+111 to Great Works and GPTI (make it symmetrical and provide some valuable non- yields).

3 yields looks pretty steep. I like the idea of 2 for GWs and 2 for GPTIs

 

[Hinin]

I'm well aware that reworking the Hwach'a isn't likely to be trendy, but I still wanted to explore some ideas on how to remove Logistics and ensure that the unit stays a strong anti-personnel weapon after upgrade. At this point, it's more about individual brainstorming, but I still wanted to put one idea there if someone is interested.

Spoiler Field Cannon Hwach'a :

Here is the Siege Weapon promotion tree for a better look at promo pathing.

Since the Hwach'a were first and foremost XVth century gunpowder weapons, I figured : why no make it a cannon replacement ? This, of course, brings out a lot of other problems since the Cannon is often considered one of the main reasons why Renaissance era warfare is so important in a game. But, for brainstorming sake, let's go this route and see if the result is interesting or not.

Hwach'a (replaces the Cannon)
Available at Gunpowder

A bit less Ranged Combat Strength compared to Cannon
No bonus against Cities, but no vision or combat malus

No Terrain Defense
Cannot melee attack
Half-speed in enemy territory
Cover
Singijeon (Attacks from this unit deals 5 damages to units adjacent to the target, within unit range, and inflicts Suppressed to it, reducing its movement by 1 for the next turn)
Field I

The idea here would be to introduce movement plague on a siege unit (similar to what the Inuit UU can do), combined with an effect that can be stacked with the Splash Damage promotions to provide an actual threat against massed troops. The free Field I promotion would allow easier access to these promotions (and to Logistics, for those who really want it, especially to combine it with Splash Damage), but also means the Korean Artillery is less likely to obtain Range later (see promo tree).

Korea is already a civilization capable of reaching Renaissance era quite early, so I don't think moving the Hwach'a there would be much of a liability.

 

[Legen]

I'm concerned:

• Overall I think he's losing more than he gains from these changes (that's without considering where the Seowon unlocks).
• Buffs to academies specifically. I find it hard to use scientists as Korea and he buffs all specialists equally.

Ideas:

• Make the UA +1 to specialists (no scaling), and add another +1 to specialists from the Seowon. This takes a lot less text and helps normalize his late game (which with +4 to specialists is really janky). It creates some wiggle room to buff his early game, which currently sucks.
• +111 to Great Works and GPTI (make it symmetrical and provide some valuable non- yields).
  
• I still think it should unlock at philosophy unless some other civ is given the bonus just because it's fun. It's something that distinguishes him from Babylon/Arabia.

Korea's scaling science on specialists was part of an old feedback, in which people wanted Korea to be a lategame oriented civ to distinguish from Babylon and Maya. That's how it went from +2 science on specialists to +1 science on specialists, scaling up to +4 science at Atomic. Yes, the civ's early game is weak, akin to Austria's, but that was intended.

Seowon's yields on GPTI could scale on a similar fashion: "+1 science on GPTI, increasing by +1 in Medieval, Industrial and Atomic", reinforcing the idea of making it a late bloomer, if we prefer to maintain this design.

I'm well aware that reworking the Hwach'a isn't likely to be trendy, but I still wanted to explore some ideas on how to remove Logistics and ensure that the unit stays a strong anti-personnel weapon after upgrade.

With the discussion on France going on, I think that civ needs an "attack twice" promotion on the UU more than Korea, as that is more synergistic for their UA. If you can get the Hwacha to have comparable strength without the Logistics, I'm up for it. I'm not convinced that the proposed change is on par with the current Hwacha, though, especially for those that like to play Korea more aggressively.

 

[Hinin]

With the discussion on France going on, I think that civ needs an "attack twice" promotion on the UU more than Korea, as that is more synergistic for their UA. If you can get the Hwacha to have comparable strength without the Logistics, I'm up for it. I'm not convinced that the proposed change is on par with the current Hwacha, though, especially for those that like to play Korea more aggressively.

With the version I'm proposing, a lvl 3 Hwach'a (what you'll train at this point of the game) can have Field I, Field II and Splash Damage, with quickly the possibility to add Splash Damage II (so 15 damages to adjacent enemy units when attacking). A lvl 6 reworked Hwach'a (with Logistics on top) would deal tremendous damage to the unit it's attacking, slow it, and deal 30 damages to all adjacent units (which is considerable => adding only 5 splash damage to the base unit actually makes splash-based tactics relevant). Knowing that these splash damages ignore terrain defense, you actually have a very good tool to thin out the frontline in offensive wars I think. Plus, the Hwach'a would stand as its own and not be "a UU that needs to be upgraded to become really useful".

Of course, there are ways to make the unit stronger outside of this "perfect scenario" but the goal here was to answer your comment about offensive potency.

 

[CrazyG]

With the discussion on France going on, I think that civ needs an "attack twice" promotion on the UU more than Korea, as that is more synergistic for their UA. If you can get the Hwacha to have comparable strength without the Logistics, I'm up for it. I'm not convinced that the proposed change is on par with the current Hwacha, though, especially for those that like to play Korea more aggressively.

I don't think adding this to France requires removing it from Korea. They wouldn't even by same promotion if you mean adding it to musketteers (they are melee, so it would Blitz, not Logistics).

Plus, the Hwach'a would stand as its own and not be "a UU that needs to be upgraded to become really useful".

The H'wacha is already really good stand alone. Your points regarding splash damage remain true on the current version too, it's already a good option and with logistics you gain XP faster.