KoS2 - There can be only war

Votes so far:

Peter: 3pts
Toku: 3pts (3.5 :))
KK: 2pts
GK: 2pts
Gilga: 4pts
SB: 1pt

To accelerate the process, I'll eliminate the laggers, leaving:

Gilga - 4pts
Peter - 3pts
Toku - 3pts


With 2 voters left.

@Stochastic
Creative mostly shines early game for blocking value purposes. 5 turns after settling you've got a full BFC and can block land much more easily. It also provides cheap libraries which is a great source of early research. And more and more... easily my favorite trait and also why I try to stay away from it :D
 
Given cripp7's vote, the current standing is

Gilga 6pts
Toku 3pts
Peter 4pts

Since Tokugawa cannot win, he is eliminated.
Leaving...
Gilgamesh 6pts
Peter 4pts

And since there's only 1 vote left, then Gilgamesh wins either way.

(Sorry to take your vote away mfie, but I want to get things started and move along rather than drag along).

In the same line of thought, I'll use my 'host powers' and veto the vote on Aggressive AI:

Aggressive AI is on.

Hence the game settings:

Pangea
Emperor Difficulty
Normal Speed
Aggressive AI
Gilgamesh of Sumeria
Forced Peace with 3AI (arranged in a cycle so that there is no perfect trading group)
Forced War with 3AI (arranged in a cycle so that there is no perfect trading group)
 
I'll post a save for you tonight. So I just have to stagger the peace and war groups so that A wars with BCD, B wars with ADE, etc?

That's correct. It might or might not change things as each AI can only have one WE but we'll see :)
Can you also add events/huts but take out Vassals (don't want forced peaced neighbors vassaling to each other but I'm not actually sure this is possible, just in case).

Thanks Shyuhe
 
Gilgamesh of Sumeria
Creative/Protective

General thoughts about settings...
We may likely want to use protective archers behind fast walls for early defense since they are so cheap and good. If possible I'd like to settle on hills when available. The AI will most likely come from the same direction every time with their stacks, so at most we should have 3 hotspots to defend, less if we're lucky, more if they show up with 2-move units.

We can also settle as close as we want to the forced peace neighbors and can use our creative trait to steal away good tiles without fear of retribution (other than a diplo hit but we might get Military struggle bonus).

Since Aggressive AI is on, our units should get promoted quickly enough which will allow us to use less on defense and then tech away to get a military edge (if we get Steel early, the game is basically over).

Remember, we can ask our neighbors to attack someone if we are sharing a war against the same person. This could be helpful to tackle some AIs - to take down castles/culture defenses mostly.

Key buildings:
-Walls (effectively cost 25:hammers: plus added defense)
-Ziggurats (Courthouses available at Priesthood and that cost only 90:hammers: i.e. half-price and possibility to run 1 spy specialist)
-Castles (add 25% to :espionage:, +1 trade route, and effectively cost 50:hammers:, plus added defense)
-Libraries (effectively cost 45 :hammers: and provide +25%:science: and the possibility of running 2 scientists specialists)

Also worth mentioning: Theatres for the happy bonus, Colosseums as well.

Key units:
-Archery units
-Vultures
-Catapults as always
-War Elephants provided we have Ivory

Also worth mentioning: Gunpowder units get free Drill I and CG I.
I'm not too fond of HAs in quasi-AW settings as you lose so many of them.

Techs:
We start with TW and Ag, the 2 most expensive starting techs. We don't need Mysticism for border pops. We can research Pottery right off the bat but I don't think this will be any use.

Border cities are more likely to be pillaged so they should focus on food/hammers. Cottages, should we wish to use them, should go in safe places away from the front line. (We likely will want to use them to help pay for all the units we will have). Although we can and should consider raiding parties! An AI with no metals is a sitting duck.

Since we get an early :espionage: building, I suggest we focus our EP early in the game which will allow us to steal a few techs during the game.

Likely opening techs:
Hunting>AH>Mining>BW (with Hunting/AH specials in BFC)
AH>Mining>BW (with only AH specials in BFC)
Mining>BW (with only grain-based resources in BFC and a lot of trees)
Hunting>Archery (with nasty neighbors next door)

If we see no copper nearby, we need to get Archery even if we get horses imo. Chariots are just not great defenders unless against barbs.

~~~

Feel free to pick on what I said / add to what I said / disagree!
 
OK, I will bite. Here's my random thoughts without seeing anything of the map.

Key buildings:
-Walls (effectively cost 25:hammers: plus added defense)
-Ziggurats (Courthouses available at Priesthood and that cost only 90:hammers: i.e. half-price and possibility to run 1 spy specialist)
Ziggs seem to encourage an early REX or early conquest, as there is less danger of maintenance getting out of hand.

-Castles (add 25% to :espionage:, +1 trade route, and effectively cost 50:hammers:, plus added defense)
-Libraries (effectively cost 45 :hammers: and provide +25%:science: and the possibility of running 2 scientists specialists)

Key units:
-Archery units
-Vultures
I haven't played Gilga much, so I was interested to read the stat line for vultures. Relative to Axes, they cost the same, are equally effective against melee, and one strength more effective against other units. Seems like a pretty underwhelming UU.

Still, it's such an essential early unit, that we will surely make heavy use of them.
If we see no copper nearby, we need to get Archery even if we get horses imo. Chariots are just not great defenders unless against barbs.
Probably true, although so much depends on our neighbors.

Just so I understand, we are in forced peace with 3 AIs, and forced war with 3, right?

In the longer term, what does this mean for VCs? Will it become impossible/very difficult to make a domination/conquest win because of our friends? If so, it would seem desirable to try to make them the punching bags, or tech while our friends take the beating.

Also, is it possible / desirable to encourage them to attack mutual enemies with us while not attacking eachother?
 
Well I'm not going to try to guess our tech path without the start, certainly your paths seem logical, but I could imagine going for mining first if there was a juicy gold/gems in our BFC.

Question about the variant: Do we know the starting diplomatic conditions of all civs or do we have to meet each one normally?

Newb question about build rates in Emperor/Normal: Since you seem to be discussing a mainly defensive war for the first while, is there any point in trying for TGW for extra generals or will we most likely get out built? I guess that depends on #of trees and stone doesn't it.
 
Ziggs seem to encourage an early REX or early conquest, as there is less danger of maintenance getting out of hand.
That is true enough, but it will likely not be possible on Pangea, unless we can squeeze the life from one of our metal-less neighbors early on.
I haven't played Gilga much, so I was interested to read the stat line for vultures. Relative to Axes, they cost the same, are equally effective against melee, and one strength more effective against other units. Seems like a pretty underwhelming UU.

Still, it's such an essential early unit, that we will surely make heavy use of them.
6str vs. 5 str for attacking a city makes a huuuuuge difference since the likeliest defenders to encounter are Archers
Just so I understand, we are in forced peace with 3 AIs, and forced war with 3, right?
Correct.
In the longer term, what does this mean for VCs? Will it become impossible/very difficult to make a domination/conquest win because of our friends? If so, it would seem desirable to try to make them the punching bags, or tech while our friends take the beating.
Conquest will only be possible if our 3 peace neighbors are completely eliminated.
Domination could be possible if similarly, some of our peace neighbors die.
Culture is doable once we only have friends - but boring.
Space as well...
Diplo as well... maybe even earlier if we juggle things right.

Also, is it possible / desirable to encourage them to attack mutual enemies with us while not attacking eachother?
The effectiveness of 'Why don't you attack' isn't great from my experience. It can certainly be a good thing with the right situation, but it can also mean we lose cities this way - double-edged blade.
 
Apparently I'm too late to vote :p (no offence taken).
And I would have voted for pangea/agressive AI/no teams anyway :D.

Conquest will only be possible if our 3 peace neighbors are completely eliminated.
Domination could be possible if similarly, some of our peace neighbors die.
Culture is doable once we only have friends - but boring.
Space as well...
Diplo as well... maybe even earlier if we juggle things right.

I would like us to go some kind of war path, maybe manipulate AI's to make domination douable (giving on of our targets some units next to a city of a AI with who our target is at war but we arn't :D). Lol, I guess we'll just have to see how the game goes before deciding.

If we see no copper nearby, we need to get Archery even if we get horses imo. Chariots are just not great defenders unless against barbs.

I agree, since the AI doesn't attack with much axeman aniway, and when we'll have chariots they'll probably just build a lot of spearman. Other horse based units are really easy to counter (I think the advantage of horses is the suprise attack and then the fast movement to do a lot of damage before the AI starts to counter. But in AW they're prepared. So just hope we'll have copper :).

I think we need to see the map so we can really make a strategy 'after all we can be boxed in between 3 friendly AI's :D)

What about building the GW for +100% Great Generals? Seems usefull, expacially because the AI won't get it soo fast because there warring.
 
About the 3 peaceful and 3 we are at war. Will we have the same peaceful civs the whole game? Or will we have 3 different civs we are at war with that change? Which means we will be at war with 3 civs all the time. But sometimes with different civs.

Hardly play Giggles. Seems like a strong leader though. Cheap courthouses and vultures. Creative is nice to for border pops and helps for culture battles. This helps placing cities easier.

I am starting to like the Protective trait. Been playing few of them offline. Love getting drill4 rifles out of the gate from HE city, with some settled GG's.

I'll wait to comment on other stuff when I see start. Tough for me to make decisions til I see.
 
Here's your map:

Civ4ScreenShot0293.jpg


You can see your enemies:

Civ4ScreenShot0294.jpg


And your settings, to make sure I did this right:

Civ4ScreenShot0295.jpg


Also, one of the AI is only at war with 2 civs, since it was either that or one of the civs is at war with 4 civs. You'll have to find out for yourself which one got the lucky break :D

The leaders were randomly selected but I chose your "opponents." Just to warn you, it may be a tad difficult given the map layout (unedited from a natural pangaea). But it should be doable. Good luck!
 

Attachments

Well that is an interesting place to start for pangaea! At least we only have one direction to defend by land :p.

I would want to settle 1 SE to get the sheep as well as pigs. Though maybe we should send the warrior 1SE to check for sea food first. Otherwise it really does not look like there is enough land to fit two settlements on the peninsula and I'd hate to see the sheep go to waste. Any chance that there is a metal on one of the plains tiles? I don't know much about the whole dowsing thing that some better members seem to be able to do.
 
Lol thats a weird pangea map. 1SE is nice, we'll pigs, sheeps, we'll silk or wathever that is and a nice production capital.
I know that if there's a unforested hill that there probably is metal. But I've seen unforested non hill plains often near my starting settler without it being a resource.
But I don't think this is an Island, but just a narrow peace of land wich is connected to the big continent.
And we're at war with Shaka :(. Thats not good especially in the Early game he's a treath
 
I agree with 1SE, gets the pigs & sheep, keeps the two seafood that we know about and potentially other seafood the either side of sheep. Move warrior 1SW.

Tech path:

1. AH>Mining>BW - allows us to improve pig & sheep. Build worker>warrior>warrior.
or
2. Hunting>AH>Archery - if Shaka is near then we'll need to build our defenses. Will we be able to research Hunt & Ah before building our first worker? If not, warrior>worker?

Playing monarchy I would go option 1 but as it is emperor and we're at war with three civs, do we opt for no.2?
 
Probably go for archery before bronze working (option 2). The workers will have enough to do for 15 turns or so (counting roads). Because if no bronze we'll be screwed if we don't go for archery.
 
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