KoS2 - There can be only war

Thanks Shyuhe for the map, looks like a fantastic one!

I would disagree strongly with moving, the capital as it is already has 3 food resources - pig, clams, fish and even spices later on. Moreover plains sheep is a terrible resources.

It has 0 blocking value (although in place isn't any better) and we do need to block some land in case we don't get metals (we need to expand north ASAP and as much as we can.

Lastly, it prevents us from building a city ON the sheep should there be seafood down there.

>>Settle in place, send the warrior north.

There are at least 3 islands within our reach that I can see. With any luck, we can settle them to get intercontinental trade routes. With even more luck we get a break in fighting and can get the GLH to secure our economy.

Techs: there's not going to be bronze on our peninsula unless we get really lucky from those 2 plains.
I'm not too sure what to do here, fishing will be useful for sure, but when? I'll run some tests on a separate map.

EDIT: Edited OP and here's a nice picture to show what I mean
KoS20000-1.jpg


I've attached the test game I built to try out a few strategies, will report how it goes in a little bit.
 
Test results:

I did 4, 2 opening with Fishing, 1 opening with AH, 1 with hunting>AH.

Test 1: Fishing first
Work any tiles 2:food:1:hammers: for 3 turns, at border pop switch to the spice 1:food:2:hammers:1:commerce: for 3 turns gives us Fishing on turn 6, as well as a second warrior to explore.

Variant a)
Synchronize growth to size 2 with workboat completion (alternate between spice and non-spice)
On turn 17, wb is done and start on worker (9 turns) (Mining after Archery to mine the pigs) the worker will road after that. Start on Hunting (Archery>>BW or AH) which us at 41/62 beakers, current bpt is 12.


Variant b Get the wb out ASAP -> work plains hill forest (3:hammers:).
Turn 14: wb done, worker in 10 turns, 11 bpt, no beakers in Hunting.

Test 2: Worker first
Variant a)
AH in on turn 13, worker in on turn 15 as usual.
Turn 19 pasture completed
8/22 food to size 2 but growing at +5
9bpt
70 beakers available (almost all of Mining or all of Hunting, started Archery)

Variant b)
Hunting>AH
AH comes in on turn 17, meaning the worker as 1 turn to start a road before pasturing
Turn 20 pasture completed
10/22 food to size 2 but growing at +5
9bpt again
104 beakers(counts Hunting) available

Conclusions:
To me it is clear that Test 1a is superior to Test 1b and that Test 2b is superior to test 2a even though I have not played the same amount of turns.

The real comparison is thus Test 1a vs Test 2b.

I'd be inclined to go Fishing first given the results:

Pros:
-timing works out better with tech/build completions
-Better bpt thus better research.
-grow faster
-gets production capacity sooner
-extra scouting warrior out (meet neighbors, get lay of land, research bonuses, huts)
-better food opportunity short term
-Archery sooner
-gets BW sooner (hurray if we have copper!)
-can build archer/extra wb after worker is done (likely Archer first for next city)

Cons:
-delayed worker a bit (turn 26) - mine comes in on turn 30 only.
-doesn't reveal horses which could be in the BFC
-On turn 27, Test 2b will be 1 turn from size 3 vs 5 turns for Test 1a
 
Yeah I didn't saw the fish/clam because the see resources button was not on...

I like 2b, but after the worker a warrior, research fishing while he's building and then a workboat (or another warrior if fishing is not done yet). After that we should have some more knowledge about the map.
I really don't like warrior first because we'll be working unimproved tiles a long time...

EDIT: I'll test this strategy out
 
I'd move the capital and build archer(s) before the boats w/ worker 1st and Hunting->AH, this way you can have PRO archers choking/pillaging.
 
bestsss said:
I'd move the capital and build archer(s) before the boats w/ worker 1st and Hunting->AH, this way you can have PRO archers choking/pillaging.
Click to expand...

I like this but the problem is we don't know if our closest neighbor is a peace or war one.

Given the cast Shyuhe picked for us, I'm guessing this is the case though.

Moving 2N1E could be doable but we really don't know what's up there.
 
I tested the following: (I moved SE btw)

Builds:
1) Worker, I worked the 3h tile and when borders expanded the 2f1h1g tile.
2) Warrior (worked the 3h tile first and later the pig tile when improved)
3) Another warrior (was not entyrelly finished)
4) Workboat

Techs:
1) Hunting
2) Animal Husbandery
3) Fishing
4) Archery

Worker got to pig on the same turn AH completed and started improving it, after that I send him to the sheep.

At turn 32 I got a workboat, size 3 city (working the fish,sheep and pig). So we can get a settler really fast (7 turns or so).

I don't know if this is considered good because I mostly play Epic-speed games not normal-speed.


kossin said:
I like this but the problem is we don't know if our closest neighbor is a peace or war one.

Given the cast Shyuhe picked for us, I'm guessing this is the case though.

Moving 2N1E could be doable but we really don't know what's up there.
Click to expand...

We'll know what our neigbours are by the time we'll have to decide, so that's not really a problem
 
What is so bad about the sheep? If we settle in place we'd probably be working a coastal tile (or specialist) otherwise, I think sheep are certainly better than coast, and are better than a specialist if that city isn't for great people (unless in representation...). I'd like to move the warrior 1SW to reveal 4 more coastal tiles near the sheep. If any of them have seafood, I'd agree with settling in place, otherwise I still think that 1SE is better.
Also, if we settle on point 1 than we will likely want to use the fish for that settlement's growth, otherwise it won't grow very fast at all. So the capital doesn't really have 3 food resources in the long run.
Overall I just think that, with current knowledge, 1SE gives us more options.

In terms of build orders, I'd certainly choose 1a.
 
I agree on moving the warrior southwest, it'll give us a better picture of what's down there, there really isn't anything better for him to do other than start scouting north (we'll at worst get a 2 turns delay). With seafood, settle in place or move north a bit.

I still don't want to move, even if there's no food down there. We'd get an extra sheep sure, but trade a grassland for a plains (the city tile). We also lose on 1 hill unless we mine the sheep for a 1:food:4:hammers: tile...

I'm warming up a bit to Hunting>AH>Archery as it might allow us to choke a neighbor early in the game (imagine getting rid of Shaka in the BCs).
 
Why not moving I really don't see any advantage to not moving?
We'll lose a grassland hill and win a plain hill with sheep.
 
We lose the possibility of a city down there. Given the lay of the land, we may end up with not much cities. Remember, we could be boxed in by Zara by his city #2 and then it'd take forever to get 6 cities from what we know.

Anyone against moving the warrior SW?
 
But that would be a really sukish city with 0 food :O (assuming no food in sea)
 
True enough hence warrior move. Unless we get GLH but I think hammers will be busy going elsewhere...

I;m just not sure where our production will come from before BW (I guess it would be the natural choice after Archery).

Pigs+sheep+center tile = 4:hammers:/turn - we can always work the plains hill with a forest for a crappy 3:hammers: and the spice for 1:food:2:hammers:1:commerce: I suppose.

Edit: If warrior move doesn't reveal seafood, I'd agree to move the settler.
Hunting>AH>Archery>Mining>BW> [[[???Fishing>Sailing>Masonry??? for a shot at GLH if it's worth it]]]
 
Go for it kossin!

In terms of tech path, I'm still torn between fishing or hunting first. I like fishing because we get extra commerce for better future teching, but hunting puts us on track for archers if we have a nearby war neighbor and AH will give more hammers (working hills w. food).

Ok, having talked myself this far, I think that the hunting-->AH path is better to get more workers/settlers/archers out faster. I think that given our position being able to grab a bit more land off the bat will be really helpful.

I do think we should start with building a warrior first to do some more exploration.
 
Moved the warrior and...
KoS20001.jpg


Plan:

Settle SE on turn 1. Tech is Hunting>AH>Archery (I may or may not start/complete it).

I'll make a pause if we have horses. Otherwise...

Build worker>warrior (working the spice 3 turns - it accelerates Archery by 1 turn although it delays growth)>start barracks>archer

Worker improves pigs then goes to sheep.
 
@ The simple mind:
I think for the obvious reason: then we'll be able to work the sheep :p

By the time we reach animal husbandery, we'll probably have met our neigbours, so we will know if our enemies are close. If this is not the case, isn't it worth delaying archery until we've got fishing?
 
Stochastic said:
All right!:D

Lead us to victory!
Click to expand...
Will see what I can do :)

The Simple Mind said:
Why would the worker go to sheep? Would it be better to start building roads to the north to connect to any potential second city?
Click to expand...
We'll have plenty of worker turns left to road after improving the sheep. It's more important to get the improvements down than to 'save future worker movement turns'. The math has been done already and it's been tried and tested. The exception is of course if you can make 1 turn in a road without delaying the improvement.

mfie said:
@ The simple mind:
I think for the obvious reason: then we'll be able to work the sheep :p

By the time we reach animal husbandery, we'll probably have met our neigbours, so we will know if our enemies are close. If this is not the case, isn't it worth delaying archery until we've got fishing?
Click to expand...
It might or might not be, we'll have to see. I'm assuming Shyuhe picked a war neighbor to be next door. Should we have horses then it's also a good reason to delay Archery.

Will play in a few... minutes or hours we'll see :)

I have to remember to re-allow events in my CustomAssets...
 
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