KoS2 - There can be only war

[kossin]

Nice set! A lot of units killed.

I think we may get some breathing room from Saladin since SB captured Pyongyang!

Comments:

Kish should be getting its infrastructure back rather than building a Musket with no barracks.
Our best commerce cities should finish getting their gold multipliers (Uruk, Ulundi,Kish and maybe a few others down the list... skip the GT city).
Keep drafting here and there. The island cities are excellent spots for it. The sooner we move on Boudi, the better.
I think Lagash can stop building wealth and start contributing on the war effort.

Stackwise: Get some pikes. We're going to get a lot of Knights to fight.

We're getting a GP from Uruk in 3 turns. It has a strong chance of being either a GE, GS, GM, GP or even GA.
A GM would be great for a trade mission. A GS could make an Academy in Ulundi.
Any other GP?... Give him some rest I think.

Keep whipping into GT, it's getting there.

We'll worry about upgrading Trebuchets to Canons once we get there

Barring something going horribly wrong, this game is starting to look up very well. With our ability to send SB or not to war, and our freedom to attack, we should get quite enough land to go for UN I think (our land+Boudi's+Sal's+vote from SB or WK... whichever way we play it).

1. kossin
2. The Simple Mind - Just played
3. Stochastic - UP
4. Meerk - On deck
5. IPEX-731BA5DD06
6. mjg5591 - Auto-Skip

 

[Stochastic]

Solid set TSM! I’ve got it to keep the ball rolling.

The plan

Start research at 100% now so that gold multiplier buildings are ready when we go back to 0%. Whip overflow units into globe in Ur. It doesn’t need any other infrastructure.
Pikes in Lagash.
Kish, switch to barracks, whip in to library ( for creative bonus) might draft some after barracks comes out and have regrown a bit. It will depend on military situation.
Uruk gets a Market. Maybe Moai?
Niribu gets market over the musket man. Will help provide happy for drafting as well as some gold.
Bad-Tibria needs a barracks, so I’ll slot that in after the musket finishes and whip into a library.
Eridu will keep churning out Trebs though I might throw in a market for the +1 happy that will let it stay happy after a draft at full size. It isn’t that bad in terms of commerce either because of all the coast.
Ulundi gets a grocer after the musket. Also maybe a Palace?
Buildings will be 2 pop whipped for max hammer overflow if it only costs coastal tiles.
Draft some Muskets in Islands as well as Ulundi (has high military police presence and food).

Some questions I'd like feedback on before I start:

What do people think of putting Moia in Uruk? It has 12 water tiles and a settled GG, so that would really help churn out some good units (ie cannons?). That would be the second National wonder, were there any plans for either Moia elsewhere or a different second National Wonder in Uruk?

What do people think about moving the Palace to Ulundi? I know Kossin mentioned it earlier, but I don't remember any follow up. If we do go for that I would place it right after the grocer

Why is there a windmill in Ulundi? It has plenty of food, wouldn’t a mine be better for the production?

When did people last try to beg gold off of WK and SB? I might try that if it hasn’t been done in the last 2 sets. I didn’t see it get reported, but I don’t know if I just missed it or not.

Right now we don’t really have the power to do so, but if Sal takes Pyongyang (unlikely I know), should I try to grab it or just re open with SB?

What do people think of settling on the red dot proposed here:

Spoiler :

I think it will help consolidate our front with Boudica as well as using the tiles that Ur won’t be using when it becomes Draft city. It has potential for either production or commerce. The only reason I’m considering not doing it is because it will push our maintenance up. If we do go for that I think I would build the settler in Ur, with whipping into GT. Comments?

 

[kossin]

Red dot doesn't add a food resource (GT needs all it can get) so I'm against it.
Palace... you know for me.
Begs... don't recall, sorry!
Pyongyang... unlikely to be captured by Sal. It'll be swarmed in WK culture so we'd lose it soon enough -> No
Windmill in Ulundi -> Throw in a workshop and leave it there for the moment.

 

[Stochastic]

Well when we start taking out Boudica (and maybe before because of creative) there is a corn resource in the outer rim of its BFC. Once we start drafting Ur will only ever be at size 5-6 so I was thinking that the only tile in red dot's BFC that Ur will use is the sugar. Another benefit is having another city that is draftable so that we can spread the from the other two drafts around.

Anyway, that idea isn't so crucial, it could probably be left off for the next set so I'll play and post in the next 12-14 hrs if there aren't any other comments.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Uruk or Bad-Tibira should get the Moai statues, I saw that from day one, National epic there was a mistake I'd say.

Kish- National hermitage, once we get a break from Saladin (go kill him??)

Lagash- Wall street, its making 18 gold at 100% science.

Ulundi- If we're (I'm on team now...) going to move capital I agree, Make that City the Iron works city along with West point, for highly promoted units. It can take 7 water mills, and has 11 tiles to use with Levy, add in West point.

Eridu- should Great Generals settled to go with Heroic Epic. and then split evenly between Eridu and Ulundi, once Eridu has 2 extra GG's Settled.

UR- Oxford Uni, with the Globe threatre city. No unhappy, its only health, and it can run 7 specialist scientist with out caste system. I'd just plow over the cottages (what ever stage, and run farms, post Biology, it'll have a food surplus of 19 if no bonus to Plantations, 21 if there is, that's nearly 10 specialists or 7 scientist, and 5 for whipping/drafting.

Forbidden palace in Boedica's capital, if running free market, is only communism, doesn't matter.

Bad-Tibera, SHOULD whip Barracks IMMEDIATELY..1 turn on a musket, need barracks, Moai statutes are Possible here also, horse for production/food, 14 sea tiles, free's up Uruk for other national builds.

All new cities should get Granary, lighthouse, barracks as 1st 3 builds, then move on wards.

Red Dot, why further dilute troops, I'd vote no, taking Poyang?? (what ever) off Saladin, its the beginning of the end for him do it if able.

Settle a city in the northern wastelands, to gain a resource?? or another off shore?? (better)

Of course, fit in troop builds, lol...Cannons, kill Saladin, beat down on BBB.

feel free to praise my input, or scorn it as you see fit

 

[Meerk]

Eridu will keep churning out Trebs though I might throw in a market for the +1 happy that will let it stay happy after a draft at full size. It isn’t that bad in terms of commerce either because of all the coast.

Is the plan to upgrade these all to cannons? Will we be able to afford that? If not, should we build some other units while waiting for steel to come online? Pikes, for example, might be helpful defensively.

Do we plan to go to 0% research once steel comes online to make money for cannon switching?

What do people think of putting Moia in Uruk? It has 12 water tiles and a settled GG, so that would really help churn out some good units (ie cannons?). That would be the second National wonder, were there any plans for either Moia elsewhere or a different second National Wonder in Uruk?

I like it, personally.

Why is there a windmill in Ulundi? It has plenty of food, wouldn’t a mine be better for the production?

My mistake, probably. I was thinking it was going to be cottage central, based on some comments from long ago, and thought more food might be necessary.

 

[kossin]

Each Trebuchets costs 80 gold to upgrade to a canon... not too bad imo. Some 0% research should help upgrading them yes. Also, each captured city will give around 100 gold which is good imo.
How many trebuchets do we have? 20 is more than enough but we should at least get 10. We don't need to upgrade all of them right away, just enough to do the real damage. Other units can be built once we reach that goal.

Moai in Uruk: also though of it, should be good now that we can work more tiles.

I don't think the windmill is a mistake. 2 windmills + a workshop is better than 2 mines + a farm imo. It'll be even better once we reach RP.

 

[Meerk]

feel free to praise my input, or scorn it as you see fit

about making the role of each city more explicit.

Kish- hermitage, once we get a break from Saladin (go kill him??)

Probably won't happen for a while, sadly.

Ulundi- If we're (I'm on team now...) going to move capital I agree, Make that City the Iron works city along with West point, for highly promoted units. It can take 7 water mills, and has 11 tiles to use with Levy, add in West point.

That's an angle I had not considered. Ulundi seemed destined to be cottage central, although we have not had much of a chance to get it moving that way. You are right that it would be a nice production city if we go that way.

Eridu- should Great Generals settled to go with Heroic Epic. and then split evenly between Eridu and Ulundi, once Eridu has 2 extra GG's Settled.

We still need a medic, and IMO that should be our next GG. We will need it more when we go on offense.

UR- Oxford Uni, with the Globe threatre city. No unhappy, its only health, and it can run 7 specialist scientist with out caste system. I'd just plow over the cottages (what ever stage, and run farms, post Biology, it'll have a food surplus of 19 if no bonus to Plantations, 21 if there is, that's nearly 10 specialists or 7 scientist, and 5 for whipping/drafting.

I don't love the combination of oxford + GT. Feels like they want to do opposite things.

 

[kossin]

We might consider letting Sitting Bull kill Wang Kon at some point. Saladin's cities will otherwise be swarmed by his culture and we'll lose several of them to him.

Hermitage isn't pressing imo.
Wall Street either. Only a few merchants here and there providing gold at 100%. Not worth the hammers when we can build military.
Ulundi->Capital->Oxford+Academy. Otherwise moving the palace there is useless imo.
Ironworks can be useful and we might keep it for one of the captured BBB cities. At least 1 is bound to be good (need to look at candidates). It can work in Ulundi but not with Oxford (where would OU go then? Definitely not the GT city, it's going to be drafted and at size 5~6 for a looooong time).
Medic -> agree that next GG should make one.

 

[Stochastic]

Ok, to try to summarize:

Looks like the Palace move is approved.
Moai for Uruk is mostly agreed on? I think it is better than in BT mostly because then we'd have to transport troops across the ocean where Boudica has naval superiority. Also Uruk has a settled GG for extra fun.

I like IPEX's idea about making Ulundi a hammer focus, though I agree with Kossin that that makes Oxford a silly second choice. However, I don't think it is all that bad to have a non oxford capital, remember a lot of the reason for the move is just for maintenance reduction. Also the AI tends to build more cottages than hammers so I think it might be easier to find a site for Oxford in Boudica's lands

Anyway, other than the Palace move and Moai, the national wonders are all fairly long term choices.

Unfortunately civ crashed about halfway through as I was playing, I'll see if I can pick up from an autosave, but I don't have time to retrace my steps right now. So unfortunately I'll have to push back the update by ~10hrs as I go off and do daytime things.

Generally things were going well with lots of drafting. Saladin actually did take Pyongyang!

 

[Meerk]

Ok, to try to summarize:
Unfortunately civ crashed about halfway through as I was playing, I'll see if I can pick up from an autosave, but I don't have time to retrace my steps right now. So unfortunately I'll have to push back the update by ~10hrs as I go off and do daytime things.

Eep! Sorry to hear it. I hate it when that happens.

 

[Stochastic]

Yah, I think I was just running too many programs in the background for my poor little laptop. Anyways, it was better than I thought, I was able to recover from turn 248 so I should be able to post within the hour

 

[Stochastic]

Inherited turn 240

• As suggested in my plan, I started Barracks in both Bad-Tibria and Kish. I also started a market in Nirubu because there were no hammers invested in the musketman.
• Lagash starts on the first of several pikes.

Turn 241

• Eridu finished its treb, start in on another, will probably go for market after that one.
• I notice that we have our own source of silver now so the silver for copper trade with WK is redundant. I avoid cancelling it for now though as there are no other deals to make.
• I also notice that all our trebs have already been promoted to city raider II. Is there a reason for this? Usually I keep units unpromoted unless they need healing or are going to be used on that turn and need the extra combat odds. Remember that knights etc can do lots of damage to our trebs with flanking.
• Slot a musketman with hammers already invested in for whipping with Ur.
• Draft in Niribu and Ulundi.
• IBTs Boudicca snuck two knights into our territory, they are probably scouts, will try to find an opportune moment to take them out.

Turn 242

• Ulundi starts on Grocer
• Uruk became unhealthy, the grocer coming up next will help that out.
• Whip Barracks in BT and Kish for 34 and 31 hammers respecively. I’m not used to normal speed so I didn’t try to micro it right to the last hammer as I can’t remember what the last hammer is! I will send overflow into libraries to take advantage of creative.
• Boudica’s knights retreated.

Turn 243

• IBTs I notice that SB looks to be having some trouble with Pyong. I decide to offer him OB again
  Spoiler :

  
• Boudica also shipped a stack towards us. We should do fine. (ed comment, thoug we don't really)
  Spoiler :

  
• Nicola Tesla (GE) is born in Uruk.
• I try to beg 30 gold from WK, he has 260 but it is a no go.
• I try to beg 50 gold from SB, he has 110, also a no go.
• Whip musket in Ur for 35 overflow will go to GT.
• Draft muskets in BT and Lagash.
• I try to renegotiate our sugar for 11gpt deal with SB but after cancelling he doesn’t want it anymore and he doesn’t want any of our other resources apart from wheat, which we need for health. I messed that one up good didn’t I. I think he must be getting some from Boudica because I don’t see any in his territory. She’s undercutting us!! This means WAR!!! oh wait...

Turn 244

• IBTs Saladin captures Pyongyang. Did I jinx that or what.
• Niribu gets the draft again.
• Kish finishes Library, start on Pike. I don’t think there is much point in going for the forge that is queued because it only has 10 hammers base.

Turn 245

• BBB starts to bombard Ulundi again. Those people must be totally shell shocked.
• Slip a LB in Ur for whip overflow.

Turn 246

• IBTs BBB attacks with a Xbow and two maces, Charles Martel and a Musketeer make short work of them.
• Whip LB in Ur for 41 overflow. Guess where that is going?
• Whip Market in Eridu for 43. Will end up in a treb

Turn 267

• BT finishes the musket that was about to compleate at the start of my set, starts on market.
• Spoiler :

  
  We loose a farm and a mine because of a crappy volcano event by Lagash.
• Uruk and Ulundi whip grocer for 41 and 42, just in time as I will need to dial back research next turn.
• BBB is about to attack....
  Spoiler :

  
• Draft in Ur, Niribu and Lagash, GT in 2!

Turn 268 a turn that shall live on in infamy as the RNG puts me in my place.
IBTs Sal has gifted Pyong to WK.

• BBB attacks
• Charles Martel is killed by a pike!!
  Spoiler :

  
  Other than that greivous wound we loose 2 muskets and a LB. BBB looses 9 units. Notebly our two WEs kill off two knights without a sctratch.
• BBB also attacks our galley transporting troops to the mainland from BT. The trireme escort was killed.
• I counter attack the leftover stack with muskets, wiping out the rememnantes. The WEs then kill the two Celtic knights with scouting promos (eg visibility) that were lurking around earlier.
• Our heroic counter attacks result in Lysander being born in Ulundi. I merge with the medic Chariot to make a medic unit. It is at 25/26 xp, so we should find an easy kill for it when on the offensive.
• I then loose a WE a >77% odds trying to kill a Camel that moved into our territory. I mop up with a pike.
• I decide that we need more anti calvary, especially as I notice that Saladin has Military Tradition as does everyone else except boudica. Might I suggest we consider opperation pillage the horses now? So I throw in a pike in Uruk and Eridu.
• Ulundi finished Grocer: onto Palace!
• I notice these stacks coming from Saladin:
  Spoiler :

  
• As you can see our forces in Kish are not up for that level of assault so I move some units from Ur and Ulundi over to help out.
• Draft in Ur Kish and Lagash.
• Also slider goes to 0%, because of my fubbing the renegotiation with SB we’ve run out of gold before we expected to and will have to wait ~4 more turns (total of 6) before steel comes in.

Turn 249

• IBTs SB adopts representation, and with WK researching democracy too, I expect we will be facing emancipation anger in the near future.
• Uruk finishes Pike on to Moai in 11. I also reconfigure the free specialist to a merchant because we need the gold.
• Eridu starts on more trebs.
• Ur finishes GT! I start on a LB because that is the fastest unit for regular completion time.
• Draft in Ulundi, Ur and BT.

Turn 250.

• IBTs Saladin sends the latest stack up next to Kish.
  Spoiler :

  
• Most of the muskets in Kish have a promo avaliable. Looking at the relative strength of our stacks I think a few should be given the city defender promo, but we don’t want to do that for all of them because otherwise we won’t have any to get aggressive with!
• I have yet to draft this turn. I’d suggest Ur obviously, Kish and another.
• Techs:
  Spoiler :

  
• Units:
  Spoiler :

  

Comments.
I’ve build some riverside workshops that should probably be replaced with mills when we get RP.
Niribu has been heavily drafted from, it needs time to recover.
The grass tile by Zimbir could do with cottageing.. It will probably be better to farm it post bio, but it is better than a coast tile in the medium term. A similar thing could be done for the small grass island near Niribu.
Having built a grocer in Uruk all of our cities now have at least 3 surpluses health. We should be selling our wheat to SB for 12 gpt for 10 turns, I’m sorry I didn’t see that earlier. (Then cancel when Uruk is unhealthy)
Remember to draft!

 

[kossin]

Nice set!

Bad luck with Martel... "stuff" happens.

Let's start piling up Pikes. We'll be seeing a lot of Cuirassiers.
SB has a nice stack coming in, 1 turn from Ulundi. He'll likely capture back Pyongyang with it - that should divert attention from future Saladin stacks.
Uruk will need a Ziggurat once the Palace moves away.
Lagash could work the gold instead of an unimproved tile
The Forge in Kish might have been good for whipping purposes. A free Engineer specialist + forge makes it 15 hammers a turn which isn't bad. It could also use a Bank as it's mostly commerce. (Palace move makes Ziggurat moot)
Nibru: yea let it cool off a bit and run extra specialists if needed.
Ulundi: nice popping silver!! I'd actually consider whipping the Palace right now. Whipping farms cost anything.
Bad Tibira: can get drafted some more.
Zimbir: no cottage here. This is a production site. Cottages will take too long to grow. workshop instead.

Sleeping Trebuchet in GT city? We'll get a second stack going on a bit later but let's stick to one for now.

Other than that... start saving up gold for upgrades of course. Where do we strike BBB? I'd say let's work our way towards Bibracte. We can skip minor cities and leave those for the second stack.

1. kossin
2. The Simple Mind
3. Stochastic - Just played
4. Meerk - UP
5. IPEX-731BA5DD06 - On deck - looks like you get the first warring set!
6. mjg5591 - Auto-Skip

 

[Meerk]

Looks good, beyond the grievous loss of our super-defender.

Broadly, I think the goals are:

• shore up defense for a couple turns (pikes).
• finish researching steel.
• build up some gold to convert trebs -> cannons.
• start pumping cannons once steel is in.

Some major questions:

• there was an earlier proposal to shift Ulundi towards a more production-oriented city, but no consensus. Do we want to? If so, do we start now? If it is going to be commerce, should it get more cottages? Or leave it as is and continue to whip/draft?
• Do we want to make a replacement super-defender, or start settling in Eridu?
• Leave OB with SB indefinitely? I may have missed something, but it seems like a generally good thing at the moment, unless he builds up too much steam.
• Does it make sense to send someone into BBB lands soon to pillage horses? Or do we not have enough force? I can't look at the save now to even know where it is.

I have not looked at the save in a few sets, so I will take a look at it tonight. I will post if there are any further questions I have. I will probably play tomorrow night, unless everything is totally obvious this by evening.

 

[kossin]

Plan looks good.

Ulundi: wait to see what the GP is. If it's an Engineer, rushing Ironworks could be in the cards...

Super defender: we're going on attack. Don't need one anymore I'd say.

OB with SB: use your judgement. If he's gaining too much ground, close so Sal and WK can catch a breather, otherwise leave open - it distracts both our "friends" and opponents.

I don't remember where BBB's horses are... if she has only 1 source and they're close by, it might be worth it. Otherwise it's a waste of hammers.
EDIT: they're in Bibracte's BFC. Forget about it.

EDIT2: SB will trade his world map for ours. Would be nice to get an updated view of the world before war.

 

[Stochastic]

• shore up defense for a couple turns (pikes).
• finish researching steel.
• build up some gold to convert trebs -> cannons.
• start pumping cannons once steel is in.

Agreed on the defense, but I think we should plan on getting the offense going asap (ie before Boudica get Cuissars as well) Maybe plan to attack Boudica's first city right after we get steel? That we we use the gold to upgrade 1-2 trebs in the city we took from the capture gold + a few more as we heal.

Some major questions:

• there was an earlier proposal to shift Ulundi towards a more production-oriented city, but no consensus. Do we want to? If so, do we start now? If it is going to be commerce, should it get more cottages? Or leave it as is and continue to whip/draft?
• Do we want to make a replacement super-defender, or start settling in Eridu?
• Leave OB with SB indefinitely? I may have missed something, but it seems like a generally good thing at the moment, unless he builds up too much steam.
• Does it make sense to send someone into BBB lands soon to pillage horses? Or do we not have enough force? I can't look at the save now to even know where it is.

I think upgrading the land around Ulundi can wait a bit more, with Boudica hanging around it is still risky to have workers around that land, and we'll want mills along the rivers when we get RP, but right now they aren't worth it. So I guess from what I'm saying I'm leaning towards production. We don't even have enough unis to start oxford yet! When it comes, I think we should build it in either Gergovia or Tolosa.

OB with SB is still good, I think the rule of close only if SB owns a city of WK or Saladin works well.

Plan looks good.
Ulundi: wait to see what the GP is. If it's an Engineer, rushing Ironworks could be in the cards...
[snip]
EDIT: they're in Bibracte's BFC. Forget about it.

EDIT2: SB will trade his world map for ours. Would be nice to get an updated view of the world before war.

Nicola Tesla is a GE, maybe I forgot to mention that in my report, sorry. So rushing IW is certainly an option. I count base 35 hammers possible with RP before rails. Not the greatest production center, but not too shabby either.

I agree with both edits.

Also, remember to make the deal with SB for 12gpt and wheat. Every little bit counts!

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

I don't see why you haven't produced wall's in Kish, we're Protective, 1/2 cost. Just build it with the whip overflow, and start on a castle after. Lots of Camel Archers will put a stop to that. Once Saladin has Muskets, its just a matter to time to Cuirassiers. But, he's till producing Melee troops that could be stopped with a castle.

 

[Stochastic]

You are right, that was suboptimal. It would have been better if I had whipped the pike and then had the wall come up just in time to delay Sal with a turn of extra bombardment, I certainly had enough warning. Oh well, too late now.

I'm not sure a castle will be useful enough to justify though, Kish doesn't have all that much food to extisively use whpping of units for production and few hammers to compleate by itself. If Saladin didn't have the option for Cuissars in the near future it might be worth it, but I don't think it is worth the investment for the short time it will be useful. Better to get another few drafts and gold multipliers I think.

 

[kossin]

I don't like putting a Wall+Castle in Kish. It's a lot of hammers and the only thing it'll do is make him spend more time bombarding it, giving him the opportunity to bring in more reinforcements. What kills us is being outnumbered seriously, nothing else. We still get way better odds at plain combat.

Saladin won't get Cuirassiers, they require Iron, which he doesn't have and can't acquire in a trade from WK (has only 1) or Boudi (trade can't cross our borders) prior to Astronomy. I think we're safe enough for a while. They still die to Pikes if we have enough of them.