KoS2 - There can be only war

[Meerk]

Sadly, RL interfered with my plans this evening, and I have only gotten about half a set done.

So far so good. Short summary: Steel is in. Made ironworks. Sal's stack is dust. BBB made another stack and I just wiped it up as well.

I am thinking about going on the offensive, but... which city should we take out first? The westernmost (size 9), the closest (size 6), or some other one?

If people prefer, I can end now and post a save/proper report in the morning. But for now... goodnight.

 

[Stochastic]

Sounds like things are going well!

Personally I'd like to burn them both and replace with the red dot I proposed earlier and the white dot between the Iron and gold. I just hate to see a Corn, Iron and Gold resource going to waste. But I understand if the group would prefer to keep them, they will provide better short term results as treb upgrading and healing centers. If we do burn them we should try to have settlers on hand to get the cultural presence up asap.

Regardless of what we do with the cities I think attacking Isca first will be more efficient because then we can take out Durnovria and move straight to Camulodunum (which should be kept) without having to backtrack.

Final note: If possible I think getting a second spy into Boudica's land would be very beneficial to provide warning of stack size, compostition and location as we march forward.

 

[kossin]

Coastal cities are less productive for the AI so go inland first.
Before razing, I'd check the cities. It if has:

-granary
-Lighthouse
-Ziggurat (less important)
-Forge (less important)

upon capture and either a food resource or is already decent size, I find it's not too convenient too raze and resettle. Keep in mind SB is close by and may yank any unclaimed land if a settler is not ready. Also settlers cost 100 hammers which is the same as a canon...

The problem with red dot here is SB's culture. Unless we settle it in first ring and push culture to 100 really fast, it'll be hard to keep the corn. Suggest a good place to settle and I'll be sold.
I don't care too much for settling the southern gold city anymore as it really isn't that much more commerce now compared to earlier.

We can always fit filler cities for unused resources later. The sooner we kill BBB and Sal, the faster we win really. We can control the war between SB and WK/Sal so if all goes well, they'll be fighting while we're teching way ahead.

 

[Meerk]

Based on Kossin's comments, my thought is to go to Camulodunum. It appears to be a major production center, and not too far in. Also, since there is SB's culture close by, we can use roads and get there in the same time as Durnovia (4 turns either way).

Anyway, I gotta run now, still planning to play my set tonight.

 

[Stochastic]

Good points about keeping focused on the goal, and with that in mind I like the idea of taking out Cam, but it will be under heavy cultural pressure too. The next wave should probably try to take out the other two close cities to ease that.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Here's a long term Idea I just had, settle a city west of Eridu, make that city the National hermitage city, and try to Culturally flip/flop the 2 Korean cities to us.

It'll never be mush of a city, just run Artists, national hermitage, theatre etc. 2 extra cities in our core, less for Wang Kon to Tech with, and will help to offset the Saladin Losses (cities)

On replacing cities, we have more culture on corn then Sitting Bull, so it'd stay ours, others have Zero from both of us (east), where the Western tiles bordering us, are ours or Celtic.

Replacing those 2 cities, sounds good, the corn is Sumerian culturally, the Hill next to it is either Korean, Native American, Sugar would be Native American.


Settling those 2 cities would require culture push. Wouldn't have the culture to draft for a while, in captured cities, could only whip, and if taken back, would immediately expand to previous borders, so replacing is good idea, just have settlers on hand to do so (2 settlers needed)

 

[Meerk]

IBT

Trade maps with SB

1705

Mediocre ain’t nothing,

Eridu: treb -> pike
Zimbir: barracks -> ziggurat
Kish: Pike -> forge

I nearly panic when I see a huge stack near Ulundi… turns out it’s SB

Whip palace in Ulundi


1710
Sal attacks

Eridu pike -> pike
Ulundi palace -> univ
Uruk, slide in zig (should have done this earlier)


BBB moves her stack off the hill, so I kill it.

Should I attack this stack? I just don’t know. I am listed with very low odds, so I decide against it.

Set slider to 90%, 2 turns to steel.


1715 Sal attacks some more

Lagash pike -> bank
Whip zig in Uruk

1720

Steel in

I queue RP, but set slider to 0% for gold anyway.

Eridu: pike -> cannon
Uruk finishes zigg, resumes moai

Oddly, Sal does not attack, despite being that kind of guy. He continues to have a few camels and a lot of archers hanging out by Kish. Looks like SB will be here in a day or so.

BBB is making another stack on the hill by Ulundi. Not much siege there yet.

Ulundi starts iron works. Nichola Tesla helps things along.

1725

trade maps with WK
Why not?

Sal attacks again, losing most of his force.

Eridu: cannon -> cannon

BBB’s stack is starting to look pretty decent – it has about 10 units, mostly knights. Most worrisome (to me) is a guerilla 3 musket. I shudder to think about attacking it on that hill.

1730

SB wipes up sal’s stack.

BBB suicides some units on ulundi, notably bringing the musket to 0.4/9 health. Also in the stack are 4 knights at/almost at full strength. We have a lot of anti-horse units in ulundi, so I wipe up the the stack. In truth, I just didn’t want the musket to heal. To kill the musket, I send in Lysander at “>99.9%” odds. Happily, he wins, and gets the exp.


1735

eridu cannon -> cannon

BBB has a mini-stack (5 units) nearby. We need to clear out some of the trees near ulundi – they are offering too many good spots for her to defend mini-stacks on the way in.

I upgrade a couple of trebs -> cannons, and start moving out.


1740
wipe BBB’s mini stack.
Ulundi finishes the spy -> cannon
Upgrade one more cannon
I also built a few roads to the east of Ulundi/Ur. It was too slow moving units around.


1745

Uruk: Moai -> cannon
Eridu: cannon -> cannon

We find another stack of BBB (5 units), but steamroll it (losing 1 cannon, but


1750

Ur LB -> cannon

I encountered yet another mini stack of BBB ( this time 3 knights, 2 trebs, and a LB). We lose one pike but kill it.


1755
Uruk cannon -> cannon
Eridu cannon -> cannon
Ulundi cannon-> cannon

1760

OK, I should not have done this. The right thing to do was to stop on the previous turn. I seek forgiveness rather than permission. I could not resist playing the start of this turn and…

Spoiler :

I stopped at this point. BBB has a small stack that will need to be taken care of (the units at the bottom of the screen are ours).

Here's Ulundi

Spoiler :

Border with WK/Sal has seen a lot of fighting. SB may finally be getting momentum, but he has yet to take Pyongyang.

Finally, here's the military

For the next player: I have not done anything this turn, beyond grab the glory at Camulodunum.

 

[Meerk]

and the save:

 

[kossin]

Ha! Looks great Meerk

I'll have a look in the morning, can't open saves on a mobile sadly

 

[Stochastic]

And so the first city falls! And keeps so many buildings! Very nice!

Meerk, did you see the defences of Dunro? We should try to take/burn (I still support burning) that before Cam comes out of resistance so that we can get resources to Cam. Also, I think Cam should be switched from working on a musket to working on theater (to whip before it starves, no point in wasting the populace ). I suggest theater over pure culture because it won't generate enough culture in one turn to pop a border so it will starve a bit.

WK is willing to trade RP +25 gold for Chemistry. I think we should do it, it will let us start converting Ulundi into a hammer center as well as providing him with a bit more support vs SB.

Speaking of which, I think we should close borders with SB right now, he is almost guaranteed to grab Pyong next turn, and if we wait will get some cannons in as well.

We can re negotiate the silver for copper deal with WK to get an extra gpt.

Lagash needs a farm, right now it is working an unimproved grass tile.

I don't have anything else right now, I'm tired and need to get to sleep.

 

[Meerk]

I did see the defense a couple turns ago, and it was 4 units. Unfortunately, I forgot to SS it. However, I started moving a small stack to take it out. I think that stack probably needs more siege, and there are several trebs left in Ulundi. I think it makes sense to add them to the Dunro stack. (after maybe upgrading one or two to cannons.)

 

[Meerk]

We should try to take/burn (I still support burning) that before Cam comes out of resistance so that we can get resources to Cam.

To elaborate on my previous post, I agree that we should take Dunro asap. I have not really thought about burning vs keeping. I suspect we will face significant cultural pressure either way, so I lean towards keeping it. Worst case scenario would be losing the land entirely. (So if the next player tries to burn and rebuild, be sure to have the settler present immediately!)

Also, I think Cam should be switched from working on a musket to working on theater (to whip before it starves, no point in wasting the populace ). I suggest theater over pure culture because it won't generate enough culture in one turn to pop a border so it will starve a bit.

I picked a musket semi-arbitrarily. My mind was mostly on taking screenshots and "how do I apologize for stealing the fun?" On the same note, clearly we should switch away from the spy specialist (not that it helps in the short term).

I agree about switching to theater (or culture). If we whip a theater will that prevent/minimize starvation?

WK is willing to trade RP +25 gold for Chemistry. I think we should do it, it will let us start converting Ulundi into a hammer center as well as providing him with a bit more support vs SB.

I agree with this deal. I totally had tunnel vision towards the end of my set.

Speaking of which, I think we should close borders with SB right now, he is almost guaranteed to grab Pyong next turn, and if we wait will get some cannons in as well.

I was starting to think that also. As recently as a turn ago, Sal and WK had some decent stacks around there, but it looked like SB has wiped them up. My feeling is it was better to err on the side of letting SB get a touch too much traction -- I didn't want another stack of Sal's coming in. (I was also rebuilding a couple of mines under somewhat thin defense of a musket or two, and was worried about Sal).

Lagash needs a farm, right now it is working an unimproved grass tile.

Alternatively, maybe draft? IIRC it still has a pretty good police force.

Note for next player: I did not do the drafts for this turn. At some point, unhappiness was starting to press in a lot of cities, and I cooled the draft to Ur and maybe 1 other city.

 

[kossin]

Just reviewed the save, looks nice!

re: RP<->Chemistry for certain. WK is 7 turns away from Rifles which we can probably trade for with Steel (assuming here). Put research on 0% at rifling next... but we may end up taking Steam Power instead.
SB-> if he marches a strong stack, close borders. His units will keep Saladin busy and that's good for us.
We don't need silver from WK, we got our own source, remember?

UR: please work that Town we foolishly built while we can.
Lagash: move the unimproved grassland to a farmed plains at the very least
Kish: needs some worker turns. Get a windmill on the other hill and workshop over the two plains tiles (including the cottage we never worked). Get the gold multipliers here next.
Nibru: I'd rather start by building a Bank when going for gold multipliers. Can we get a workshop where it's written "cottage" on the 1-tile island?
Ulundi: scrap the University in the queue, we'll be at a low research slider for a long time. I wouldn't work so many Engineers with so many improved tiles. If anything, we could use a Great Merchant right now.
BT: make sure you get it working the clams once BBB moves her Caravel. Again Bank first. Forge/ziggurat wouldn't hurt here.
Zimbir: citizen -> spy specialist. I'd let this one grow a little bit before working the hammer tiles. (move 2 pops to coast for growth)
Cam: get infra first. We'll be whipping the starving population on the first turn it comes out of revolt. It needs more than a single musket for defense. Add a second and a pike.

As I mentioned, a Great merchant now would be quite useful. For that some micro in Uruk:
run 4 merchants, 0 engineer. Move 0 food tiles to Moai coast. It'll still have a good food surplus so it'll et back the hammer tiles fast anyway.

Overall, I'm a bit worried about Rifling. It looks as BBB/WK/Sal are actively chasing it. In that case, we're going to need to re-draft an army and a LOT more canons. We'll probably lose 2~3 canons per city (unless lucky) but they're just way cheaper than rifles. As a result, I don't think it's too bad to let SB dig himself a bit deeper into WK to slow that group's research. But we want Sal's land for ourselves so if he starts being too competent -> close borders.

I increased the gpt to 56 with just some micro I mentioned here. It can easily be ~100+ by the end of the next set which means a much stronger economy. Focus on war but don't neglect economy too much.

1. kossin - On deck
2. The Simple Mind
3. Stochastic
4. Meerk - Just played
5. IPEX-731BA5DD06 - UP!! Good luck with your first set here.
6. mjg5591 - Auto-Skip

 

[Meerk]

Kish: needs some worker turns. Get a windmill on the other hill and workshop over the two plains tiles (including the cottage we never worked). Get the gold multipliers here next.

I fear I lost a worker over there to a surprise camel attack. We probably will want another worker or two, especially if we have railroads coming soon.

Ulundi: scrap the University in the queue, we'll be at a low research slider for a long time. I wouldn't work so many Engineers with so many improved tiles. If anything, we could use a Great Merchant right now.

I realized the Uni was a mistake shortly after starting it. I had the notion of leaving it around and it would get built after we are done with BBB, but I agree it is not worthwhile. We may not even be teching at that point.

BT: make sure you get it working the clams once BBB moves her Caravel. Again Bank first. Forge/ziggurat wouldn't hurt here.

Caravel has been a real nuisance. Always getting in the way. This is a good thing to remember to check every turn.

Cam: get infra first. We'll be whipping the starving population on the first turn it comes out of revolt. It needs more than a single musket for defense. Add a second and a pike.

I totally agree about needing more defense. I stopped immediately after taking it. My assumption is that some portion of our stack will step in there.

As I mentioned, a Great merchant now would be quite useful. For that some micro in Uruk:
run 4 merchants, 0 engineer. Move 0 food tiles to Moai coast. It'll still have a good food surplus so it'll et back the hammer tiles fast anyway.

Overall, I'm a bit worried about Rifling. It looks as BBB/WK/Sal are actively chasing it. In that case, we're going to need to re-draft an army and a LOT more canons. We'll probably lose 2~3 canons per city (unless lucky) but they're just way cheaper than rifles. As a result, I don't think it's too bad to let SB dig himself a bit deeper into WK to slow that group's research. But we want Sal's land for ourselves so if he starts being too competent -> close borders.

On the military front, BBB seems to have a ton of small stacks around (4-6 units, typically a knight or two, a musket or two, a mace/xbow, and a treb or two). We should move our spy forward a bit to better see incoming units.

I have been building cannons like crazy from Eridu/Uruk, but without railroads it takes a long time to get them to the front. From Uruk, I believe it's like 6-7 turns to the front with BBB.

Even so, we have a strong military advantage, at least temporarily. Should we keep moving our stack forward now? I have not given much thought to our next target (beyond the two close cities, which can be dealt with by a smaller force, if it moves quickly.) My typical military problem is over-estimating how far to press on offense.

I increased the gpt to 56 with just some micro I mentioned here. It can easily be ~100+ by the end of the next set which means a much stronger economy. Focus on war but don't neglect economy too much.

Absolutely guilty as charged!

I should write a per-turn checklist or something so I don't get tunnel vision as badly. I always forget trades as well. What do you all check every turn?

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Heh heh heh, I'm a FIRM believer in Forward defence, I'll run Max troops forward to press the attack, and leave min defence behind to safe guard, oh I'll leave a defence on borders attacking from.

On build, I believe in whipping often and hard, I usually play a farm economy, so I whip hard, because, I can get the economy to a stage where its recession proof. Attack is what's needed now, NO INFRASTRUCTURE, CANNONS CANNONS AND MORE CANNONS. drown her in Cannon balls, have her lose her cities, so NO PRODUCTION, NO ARMY.

INFRASTRUCTURE can wait till the war is over, and we're only facing off against Saladin, Now's the time to PRESS THE ATTACK.

Hit her hard and now, trade for replaceable parts, trade for rifling, once it become available, with steel, research sits at zero, banks markets etc, can WAIT, ARMY cannons, rifles, Calvary are what's needed. Stables + Barracks are the only builds I'd be making. Forges and Ziggurts, can wait till war's over.

Having Sitting Bull FIGHT Saladin for us is a great idea. BUT WE NEED TO DEFEAT BOADICEA.

I have no problem taking the city, you set it up, its your baby/prize to claim, well done.

Railroads, we'll have to research on own I'd say, they'd all be going for Infantry (always war), but BOADICEA NEEDS TO DIE FIRST.

I've made an update of dot mapping, deleted some existing cities, added new possibles, deleted a grossly wrong one.

Plan for war, keep all Boadicea's cities, too late to be adding new one's.

Hit Tolosa, then go onto Bribracte, leaving the other cities to Troops following up to take.

This does 3 things.

1) Keeps the advance going.
2) Takes out her main Production cities.
3) Allows the Replacement troops to arrive at the battle, and to actually take part.

Replacement troops, will have to be produced from Ulundi and Ur. (closest cities), ALL OTHER CITES will draft, whip till they are upset, then some more.

will wear off, reduce due to Luxury resources/ ending of war. Losing cities or an advantage WON'T.

WE HAVE ONLY 1 OPPORTUNITY TO hit Boadicea hard and decisively. Not doing so now, and building INFRASTRUCTURE is a mistake, complete current builds, but banks, markets, can wait till after war.

Remember, we control the flow of troops across our borders, so control the pace of war. BOADICEA is the only one we don't control.

My idea to to whip, set for max production, and drown her in cannons, Calvary, Rifles. (7 turns) Whip Stables, barracks, Forges Multiplier,

Road network TO BOADICEA is needed, not water mills. (2nd)

WHAT are we doing with UR's towns, farms, or work them???

map with dot's updated attached, moved 1 musket to hill to get vision.

View attachment 243202

I'm 24 hr's From Tolosa......damm I'm funny

 

[kossin]

Sounds like a plan to me. All out war is my vote.

I'd leave Ur's towns. They'll be good for post-war time. 1 extra food won't change much here, drafting 1/turn I believe requires 15 surplus at size 5.

EDIT: we're going to need more than just 1 unit as garrison however.
I'd still try to farm a GM from Uruk. The gold will be great once we come out of war.
Ur should focus on food, not hammers. It's a food->hammer converter. Draft draft!
Some of the micro is dubious. Unimproved tiles? If you want to be whipping, then it's food that's needed, not hammers.

 

[Stochastic]

I'd agree with Kossin about some micro, if you want to whip draft whip draft draft draft draft, configuring for max hammers in Niribu Zimbir and Ur is a strange decision. I'd also agree with the 4 merchants in Uruk. We've built the NE there, may as well get the most return/hammer. If we get a GM we could use it for a trade mission to get some more tech going, if we get a GE we can save it for Mining inc to boost our hammer output in crucial cities. That will be useful if we end up facing a technologically superior Saladin and/or wining by space race.

However I like the uncompromising approach to taking the fight to BBB so long as units get a chance to heal up. I noticed that Lysander has a promo avaliable, do we want to give him march or Moral?

Also, personally I wouldn't bother with Stables in Uruk or Eridu, they have settled GGs so Knights (which I think are a good idea to build there for the faster reinforcement) wont get another promo. Better IMO to get the extra 2 knights that could be built in the time it takes to build the stables.

EDIT: Also, remember that Calvary is a ways a way, need to either self tech or get steam pwr and trade.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Hammers micro is for max hammer overflow, from whipping, then it goes food.

Stables, more for when we do get Calvary, extra points, and can be done with whip overflow.

I've mostly set up for max hammer overflow from whip's, UR. its got current production and food, working towns..I'd go back to farms.

GM.?? Hmm have to look at that, personally I just settle them all, +1 food, and 6 , but...bow to your wishes.

Yes heal troops, can heal while bombarding culture down. Looks like you've broken her, just dribs and drabs of troops now. But I'll go for those cities in that order, the other 2 behind, can be taken by replacement troops, speeding up time to reach front, and guarding our rear.

 

[Meerk]

I noticed that Lysander has a promo avaliable, do we want to give him march or Moral?

Right. I forgot to mention that. I was thinking march, but don't feel strongly.

But I'll go for those cities in that order, the other 2 behind, can be taken by replacement troops, speeding up time to reach front, and guarding our rear.

I like this approach.

 

[Stochastic]

Hammers micro is for max hammer overflow, from whipping, then it goes food.

Stables, more for when we do get Calvary, extra points, and can be done with whip overflow.

I've mostly set up for max hammer overflow from whip's, UR. its got current production and food, working towns..I'd go back to farms.

Oh Ok, for some reason I got the impression that those were more long term assignments, that sounds totally sensible.

GM.?? Hmm have to look at that, personally I just settle them all, +1 food, and 6 , but...bow to your wishes.

Hey, no need to bow down, the more argumentation the more I learn in this SG!

I think it is more of a question of if the short term gain is worth it over the long term gain. Here is my take: In our current situation I think that doing the trade mission is better because it will help us get steam power much faster and that will provide useful trades (eg for Calvary and maybe econ techs like econ/corps). Those military techs will speed up our foreign "acquisitions" which should end up providing much more than the 6gpt. If we weren't in expansion mode and a tech race (and more than half way through the game) I'd probably go for the settling too.