Lack of discussion?

[ravensfire]

I'm curious,

In the current TCIT, there are instructions from a Governor to initiate a Great Wonder in a city under their control.

I've not seen any discussions on this. Period. Nothing from the MIA (other than a confirmatory post in the TCIT). No polls. No determination of the Will of the People. Is this truly where the People want this wonder? Is there a better site?

Did I miss this discussion somewhere, or are Governors now no longer even paying lip service to the People, and running their own little fiefdoms, belittling those that think otherwise and demanding actions beyond their control.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Sarevok]

I hate to say it, but youre right there is no real "democracy" anymore. Though I think it is the casue that the only real "people" all have offices. There is no citizenry to speak of.

 

[Chieftess]

I agree. It's something I've been saying all demogame...

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by Sarevok
I hate to say it, but youre right there is no real "democracy" anymore. Though I think it is the casue that the only real "people" all have offices. There is no citizenry to speak of.

No, the cause is a lack of willingness to actually have discussions. It doesn't matter if all the "real" people have offices or not - they are still citizens. It is that difficult for someone to post in the MIA thread - "Hey, I like to build Wonder X in city Y in province Z in the next turn chat or two. Could you start a discussion on it?"

Obviously, it must be.

This problem isn't the ruleset. It's people. It's us. It's a lack of communication. More acurately, it's the lack of desire for communication. There's been precious little of it, except for bloodlust discussions.

-- Ravensfire

 

[tao]

I agree. I very much like discussions (preferably with knowledgeable people). Thus I always encourage people to argue with me. Preferable by giving arguments, but not of the quality "it is obvious", "it is said somewhere", etc.

In this special case, I as a mere governor am not empowered to start an "official" argument and poll. This may be done by the MiA if he so chooses.

But I am also perfectly happy to argue my point of view in this special case.

@Ravensfire: I discuss build queues for Audiac in the Audiac Province thread. It is not my responsibilty to organize wonder build discussions. Please read here what the MiA committed to when running for the job.

 

[Black_Hole]

I still think we need more people in the demogame, there has to be some way to bring people in

 

[ravensfire]

tao,

That's a very nice try in circumventing the people in your discussions. Oh yes, I forgot. We're "stupid" and "foolish" - some of the wonderful adjectives you've used to describe people in your diatribes.

See, here's the thing. Nothing is preventing you from asking a leader to start a discussion on something. I know, I know. It's a shocking concept, completely foreign to many I'm sure. And such a difficult task too! Why, you've have to actually click on the MIA thread - truly a quest worthy of the sages! Then, after much effort and strife, click on the Post Reply button, so cleverly disguised at the top and bottom of the list of posts. Then the struggle gets only harder, as you've have to face the perils of the keyboard, fighting off the continual terror of Carpal Tunnel to type "I'd like to build Wonder X in my city. Please start a discussion on that. Thanks!" Oh the horror! And then the Submit button - a herculean task for certain!

Sorry, your excuse is just that, an excuse, and a poor one at that. This isn't a single player game. It's a democracy game. Not everyone thinks as you do, or sees the things you do. People think differently, and see other ideas and plans. You must share the ideas and concepts that you have.

Wonders are a precious resource - they can only be built in one city. I'm going to do something I hate, and drag up the past. In DG3, we intentionally built wonders in cities other than the highest producing cities/provinces because there is a sense of pride that can come from it. A sense of ownership and accomplishment. Wonders are a national objective - not a mere localized projects. They are something the entire nation can take pride in.

This is a mockery of that process. A joke. Your reasoning is also a mockery of the citizens of this nation. Oh, well, nobody brought it up, so I'll just build it.

What a joke. What a complete, utter joke. Thanks for reminding me why I shouldn't participate in this so-called DG.

Terrible.

-- Ravensfire

 

[tao]

Originally posted by ravensfire
tao,

That's a very nice try in circumventing the people in your discussions. Oh yes, I forgot. We're "stupid" and "foolish" - some of the wonderful adjectives you've used to describe people in your diatribes.

See, here's the thing. Nothing is preventing you from asking a leader to start a discussion on something. I know, I know. It's a shocking concept, completely foreign to many I'm sure. And such a difficult task too! Why, you've have to actually click on the MIA thread - truly a quest worthy of the sages! .....

You amuse me. You want discussions but are asking me to stipulate them. Why don't you do it? You so nicely described the process in your post.

Also: Why do you complain about persons taking the initiative? Do you prefer those who first take office and then fail to post turnchat instructions several times?

PS: When did I ever call somebody "stupid" or "foolish" without very good reason? Would you prefer gibberish like "it is not clearly understandable" or "questionable argument". I like clear words where appropriate. Or do you prefer "politician's talk"? Or should I just reference Cipolla?

 

[Bootstoots]

Ravensfire, if you have anything you want brought up for discussion, don't hesitate to ask for it to be posted yourself.

I actually think that we have a fair amount of discussion ongoing. More would be better, but as it is the threads on the first post of the citizens' forum only date back to mid-April. We have been lacking discussion on Wonders, but most of our decisions are discussed and polled.

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by Black_Hole9
I still think we need more people in the demogame, there has to be some way to bring people in

To those I've talked to (and I did a survey on it), some didn't come back simply because of all the rules, and legal arguments/debates/infighting. The first 2 terms really killed participation in the game.

 

[DaveShack]

To those who don't seem to get the idea, here is an example of starting a discussion on matters pertaining to a province. I for one am not afraid of soliciting the people's input and having an open discussion on that input. To have a good Democracy game we need to be willing to seek citizen input, listen to it, and follow their wishes. This should even go to the point of following inefficient or even incorrect input, when it is the majority view. Our elected leaders don't have to be the best Civ players around, and even if we are top flight players, we need to be humble enough to make the citizens feel like their input matters. If we're not careful about that, we'll end up with a succession game and a bunch of bystanders.

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by DaveShack
To those who don't seem to get the idea, here is an example of starting a discussion on matters pertaining to a province. I for one am not afraid of soliciting the people's input and having an open discussion on that input. To have a good Democracy game we need to be willing to seek citizen input, listen to it, and follow their wishes. This should even go to the point of following inefficient or even incorrect input, when it is the majority view. Our elected leaders don't have to be the best Civ players around, and even if we are top flight players, we need to be humble enough to make the citizens feel like their input matters. If we're not careful about that, we'll end up with a succession game and a bunch of bystanders.

[dance][dance]


This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get governors to do all along.

 

[DaveShack]

Originally posted by ravensfire

Wonders are a precious resource - they can only be built in one city. I'm going to do something I hate, and drag up the past. In DG3, we intentionally built wonders in cities other than the highest producing cities/provinces because there is a sense of pride that can come from it. A sense of ownership and accomplishment. Wonders are a national objective - not a mere localized projects. They are something the entire nation can take pride in.

Please, do offer a suggestion of another location to build this wonder.

If you actually disagree with the queue, for some reason other than who posted it or the method it was done, then please bring that up. You should understand, going against the will of the people is an entirely different matter than not asking the will of the people.

Here's another slant on current events, just to get you thinking in another direction. A Wonder may come available, and we have someone who is on the spot and is prepared to grab that Wonder before it slips through our grasp. Why villify someone who is actually on top of the game and thinking about something other than how many cavalry we need to conquer the world? We should be praising tao for being on top of things.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by DaveShack
Please, do offer a suggestion of another location to build this wonder.

If you actually disagree with the queue, for some reason other than who posted it or the method it was done, then please bring that up. You should understand, going against the will of the people is an entirely different matter than not asking the will of the people.

Here's another slant on current events, just to get you thinking in another direction. A Wonder may come available, and we have someone who is on the spot and is prepared to grab that Wonder before it slips through our grasp. Why villify someone who is actually on top of the game and thinking about something other than how many cavalry we need to conquer the world? We should be praising tao for being on top of things.

Honestly - I no longer care enough to even bother to open the save. It would be nice to see a summary of our current situation somewhere ... It's also irrelevent to the main point of my initial comment.

I will beg to differ though, about the WotP. A failure to solicit the will of the people on a major issue is worse than going against the will of the people. See, by going against it, it's easy to see and thus correct. By not soliciting it for major decisions, a leader is saying that they don't care about the people, that they are superior to the people, that the people don't matter. That's more than just wrong, that's completely against the intent of the game!

tao has essentially shown the way, if allowed to continue, for leaders to do anything they darn well please. Just don't post discussions of any type! After all, according to him, it's the people's responsibility to open discussions, and the leaders should react. Heaven forbid a leader get off their lazy butt and actually start a discussion!

Praising tao - that viewpoint is abhorent to me. Praise him for not even bothering to post a discussion about a Wonder? Praise him for not bothering the People with such trivial discussion? Praise him for what? No - we should do anything but. Vilify him, for ignoring the People. Vilify him, for trying to glorify and justify circumventing the people.

Praise him. Indeed.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by ravensfire
I will beg to differ though, about the WotP. A failure to solicit the will of the people on a major issue is worse than going against the will of the people. See, by going against it, it's easy to see and thus correct. By not soliciting it for major decisions, a leader is saying that they don't care about the people, that they are superior to the people, that the people don't matter. That's more than just wrong, that's completely against the intent of the game!

Exactly. I'm not sure if I said this before (in one way or another), but we should start CC'ing governors, and officials that don't post discussion threads/queues for discussion.

In fact... back in DG1, and 2, we had such a rule, or something similar, where if the official wasn't doing their job, the president could appoint someone different, or a PI could be started (which, BTW, were much quicker then. Start a PI, and the discussion thread was started that day).

 

[tao]

Originally posted by Chieftess
Exactly. I'm not sure if I said this before (in one way or another), but we should start CC'ing governors, and officials that don't post discussion threads/queues for discussion.

If you address me with this comment, you completely lost me.

I posted a draft of my instructions here in the province thread and explicitely asked for comments.

I always try to post my turnchat instructions early and modify them according to feedback received.

You may also want to look in the Term 4 thread and Term 3 thread for Audiac Province and you will find that I always try to involve people - with limited success however. IMHO I did more than the other governors, maybe not in discussing provincial flags but in concentrating on the game.

tao
Governor of Audiac

PS: I just looked over the last 3 pages of the Citizens thread and found that I started much more dicussions than the "chief complainer".

 

[Sarevok]

I think more people is the probelm, as with more people comes more discussion. That is the solution to this problem.