Shoshone discussion

[ma_kuh]

It's less clever, but you could remove the "same terrain" concept and just make the border growth trigger 3 free tiles too.

Cities gain 3 additional Tiles upon Founding or Conquest, and claim adjacent unowned Land Tiles after borders expand to a Tile with the same Terrain.

vs.

Cities gain 3 additional Tiles upon Founding, Conquest, or expanding borders naturally.

 

[Rekk]

It's less clever, but you could remove the "same terrain" concept and just make the border growth trigger 3 free tiles too.

I actually just independently proposed that half-jokingly in discord. The sticking point is "how are the border growth tiles" decided?
1. If you use the tile picker like Found and Conquest do, then you'll claim all the good tiles first (generally places where you can't put encampments).

2. If you force it to adjacent tile, then we can't use the tile picker (it's specific to the city, not localized to a plot). Then I guess it would be random? Deprioritizing water tiles (since we can't put encampments on them)? Do you lose out if there's only 1-2 tiles unclaimed adjacent to your border growth tile?

I agree that "claim adjacent unowned Land Tiles after borders expand to a Tile with the same Terrain" is an unwieldly, awkward phrase; it exists only because of the desire to completely describe how a given mechanic works.

 

[pineappledan]

I will say that switching to random adjacent tiles on border growth would solve a problem this ability has on communitas. That map likes to make mosaics of different terrains, which can severely nerf that adjacent tile claim ability and make users’ experience with it vary widely

Not sure if 2 or 3 free tiles is the right number. Getting 4 tiles when you would normally get 1 just seems like a lot. The consistency of that and the immediacy of the settle bonus makes me think 2 is the safer starting point. Huns can get up to 5 tiles in an ideal claim, but that doesn’t trigger on water tiles, and in practice you usually only get an extra 2-3, between terrain types and already-owned tiles

 

[pineappledan]

I agree that "claim adjacent unowned Land Tiles after borders expand to a Tile with the same Terrain" is an unwieldly, awkward phrase; it exists only because of the desire to completely describe how a given mechanic works.

If memory serves the current state of this ability has a bit of a history. It used to be broken up, and different civs had extra adjacent tile claims for specific terrains. Arabia would claim adjacent desert tiles, for instance. With it all piled into 1 civ it could stand to be simpler and more consistent.

 

[pineappledan]

Putting it together:

Great Expanse

• Gain 2 additional tiles when you gain a city or your borders expand.
• Land Units gain +20% Combat Strength in friendly territory.
• Clearing Barbarian Encampments also gives an Ancient Ruin reward.

Encampment
Requires flat land and not adjacent to another Encampment
+15% Tile defence
5 damage to adjacent enemies each turn
+21
Nearby city gains +1 for each Encampment if it has a Smokehouse, +1 if it has a Customs House, and +2 if it has an Interpretive Center.

Tech upgrades:
1 at Drama
1at gunpowder
1at rifling
1 at advanced ballistics

 

[azum4roll]

Gain 2 additional tiles when you gain a city or claim a tile.

You didn't put "adjacent" in there. I think that's what you wanted? Should the tile picker be picking the "best" adjacent tiles here too? I think it's too random if not.

 

[Rekk]

You didn't put "adjacent" in there. I think that's what you wanted? Should the tile picker be picking the "best" adjacent tiles here too? I think it's too random if not.

Tile picker works on the city. It won't function for the "adjacent tile". If you want to use the tile picker, it will have to choose over the entire city.

It looks like pdan just condensed back to using the city-wide tile picker for everything. This is essentially the original Shoshone ability but more gradual and extends further into the game.

It takes 3 border expands to be equal to the original Shoshone ability, which is a lot for satellite cities, I think. Maybe 3 tiles would be best (equivalent at two border expands).

 

[pineappledan]

Not sure if necessary? I guess the method is different though. Yes, the idea is 2 random tile adjacent to the claimed one. I prefer that to just using the tile picker for everything.

Rek and I looked at the tile picked scoring and tbh giving the best tile every time doesn’t seem like a very good bonus. Not worth the words to describe, much less the effort to code.

It takes 3 border expands to be equal to the original Shoshone ability, which is a lot for satellite cities, I think. Maybe 3 tiles would be best (equivalent at two border expands).

3 border expansions doesn’t sound like much at all, and this bonus has legs far beyond that. Agree to disagree I guess.

Great Expanse
Cities gain 2 additional tiles when settled or conquered and 2 more adjacent tiles when their borders expand naturally. Land Units gain +20% Combat Strength when in friendly territory, and Ancient Ruin rewards when they clear Barbarian Camps.

 

[azum4roll]

This is way less fun than the claiming adjacent same terrain tiles ability.

 

[pineappledan]

And my latest draft of insane shoshone’s, based on feedback:

Great Expanse
Once they have reached 6 Population, Cities give birth to Taikwahni instead of new citizens. When City borders expand naturally, claims all adjacent land tiles of the same terrain type. Land units gain +20% combat strength in owned territory.
[IMG width="98px" height="115.572414px" alt="1691547316569.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/1691547316569-png.669347/[/IMG]
Taikwahni (unique civilian unit)
Produced when a city with 6 citizens generates enough food to grow
Can build a Katayna. Is consumed on construction of a Katayna
[IMG width="133px" height="131.585106px" alt="1691547219328.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/1691547219328-png.669346/[/IMG]
Katayna (unique improvement, uses Tipi model)
Can be built anywhere, including on resources, but not next to another Katayna
1
+1 at Mathematics
+1 at Machinery
+1 at Metallurgy
+1 at Dynamite
+20% tile defense
Deals 5 damage to adjacent enemy units every turn
Has a free citizen permanently assigned to it
gives yields on the tile to the city that owns the tile
ignores city working distance (ie. can be >3 tiles from the city as long as the tile is owned by that city)
circumvents city 6 population cap (contributes to population scaling abilities and food cost for next growth, but only the 6 from the cap can be freely assigned to specialists and tiles)

 

[Recursive]

Has a free citizen permanently assigned to it
gives yields on the tile to the city that owns the tile
ignores city working distance (ie. can be >3 tiles from the city as long as the tile is owned by that city)
circumvents city 6 population cap (contributes to population scaling abilities and food cost for next growth, but only the 6 from the cap can be freely assigned to specialists and tiles)

I don't necessarily dislike this idea, but from my limited knowledge of the city governor's workings, this sounds like it would be difficult to code. Maybe not the functioning of it, but it'd probably open the door to multiple bugs. Having worked tiles beyond the working distance could also cause bugs or UI issues.

 

[Markal]

I find the "insane Shoshone" more appealing and refreshing but Rekk's proposal is interesting too, and more realistic. Just two remarks on my side:

1- by linking the encampment bonuses to buildings you would always build in your city (maybe not the smokehouse if the terrain is not suitable) it takes off interaction and make the bonus a bit bland imo. If it were a placement bonus or something more dynamic I think it would be more interesting. Or at least a choice: encampment can give +X bonus of X depending on which building you build (a bit like Venice or USA have to chose between different national wonders).

2- I see no discussion about it so maybe people are very attached to that idea but I still don't understand why the encampment gives a bonus to defense. It's tipis built on a flat land so that doesn't sound very sturdy to me, it's redundant with the UA, I just don't see the logic here. I get the "harassing" theme with the damage per turn, but the defense bonus bugs me.

 

[azum4roll]

1- by linking the encampment bonuses to buildings you would always build in your city (maybe not the smokehouse if the terrain is not suitable) it takes off interaction and make the bonus a bit bland imo. If it were a placement bonus or something more dynamic I think it would be more interesting. Or at least a choice: encampment can give +X bonus of X depending on which building you build (a bit like Venice or USA have to chose between different national wonders).

It's intended to act as a tech unlock for city yields, but the ability only works on buildings.

2- I see no discussion about it so maybe people are very attached to that idea but I still don't understand why the encampment gives a bonus to defense. It's tipis built on a flat land so that doesn't sound very sturdy to me, it's redundant with the UA, I just don't see the logic here. I get the "harassing" theme with the damage per turn, but the defense bonus bugs me.

It's probably there to prevent units on encampments being too easily killed (no defensive bonuses on open terrain) which leads to the improvement being pillaged and not doing damage.

 

[Markal]

Thanks for the insights. Personally I'd prefer a riskier approach with better reward: no defense bonus on the tile but the damage per turn raised to 10 (instead of 5).

 

[pineappledan]

I don’t think the AI would understand that they’re supposed to be on top of them to keep them from being pillaged if they didn’t have tile defense

 

[usadefcon1]

And my latest draft of insane shoshone’s, based on feedback:

Great Expanse
Once they have reached 6 Population, Cities give birth to Taikwahni instead of new citizens. When City borders expand naturally, claims all adjacent land tiles of the same terrain type. Land units gain +20% combat strength in owned territory.
[IMG width="98px" height="115.572414px" alt="1691547316569.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/1691547316569-png.669347/[/IMG]
Taikwahni (unique civilian unit)
Produced when a city with 6 citizens generates enough food to grow
Can build a Katayna. Is consumed on construction of a Katayna
[IMG width="133px" height="131.585106px" alt="1691547219328.png"]https://forums.civfanatics.com/attachments/1691547219328-png.669346/[/IMG]
Katayna (unique improvement, uses Tipi model)
Can be built anywhere, including on resources, but not next to another Katayna
1
+1 at Mathematics
+1 at Machinery
+1 at Metallurgy
+1 at Dynamite
+20% tile defense
Deals 5 damage to adjacent enemy units every turn
Has a free citizen permanently assigned to it
gives yields on the tile to the city that owns the tile
ignores city working distance (ie. can be >3 tiles from the city as long as the tile is owned by that city)
circumvents city 6 population cap (contributes to population scaling abilities and food cost for next growth, but only the 6 from the cap can be freely assigned to specialists and tiles)

In this scenario what happens to the city's population if a Katayna is stolen by a Great General?

 

[pineappledan]

It gets lowered by 1

 

[Legen]

Nearby city gains +1 for each Encampment if it has a Smokehouse, +1 if it has a Customs House, and +2 if it has an Interpretive Center.

1- by linking the encampment bonuses to buildings you would always build in your city (maybe not the smokehouse if the terrain is not suitable) it takes off interaction and make the bonus a bit bland imo. If it were a placement bonus or something more dynamic I think it would be more interesting. Or at least a choice: encampment can give +X bonus of X depending on which building you build (a bit like Venice or USA have to chose between different national wonders).

What if the Encampment were to get extra yields based on distance from the city? It would interact well with the land grab from Shoshone's UA.

 

[pineappledan]

What if the Encampment were to get extra yields based on distance from the city? It would interact well with the land grab from Shoshone's UA.

That has all the same issues as my first 1 For every 2 unworkable tiles proposal. If you plant a new city you will tank your own yields by changing the distances, and create an incentive for widely spaced cities that the AI will struggle with. The best we can do is make a distance-agnostic ability, so it still works if far away from a city, but you aren’t punished if it’s near a city.

 

[hokath]

slightly OT, but have we ever had a discussion about the discord vs. forum etiquette?
It doesn't seem like the discord is advertised in any kind of sticky? But it does seem discussion is happening there?
Can someone explain how they deal with the conversation being in 2 places? ty