Lair Feedback: The problem with "Or"

[[to_xp]Gekko]

btw, why no monster-spawning lairs in the ocean? that would be a lot of fun

 

[BillSeurer]

Shipwrecks do that.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

do they? I'm pretty sure I've read in the changelog that the shipwrecks were explorable but wouldn't spawn monsters. btw, are they explorable by ships or only by flying units? ships should be able to explore them imho, to make them more useful and also cuz it really makes no sense for a griffon to explore something that is sunken

 

[Hanny]

Could lairs etc be level dependednt?, so each level of dungeon ( 2 to 6 for arguments sake) can only be explored by lthat evel (or higher unit, possible only scout or adventurer class?), that way you can have higher level dungeons that cant be explored till some time into the game, depending on xp aquisistion, and each level of dungeon can be tuned to different levels of monsters/rewards, by making the level add to the rand so as to make early levles the run of the mill stuff, and higher ones risk a higher level unit and run more rissks of higher risk/reward.

 

[cabbagemeister]

do they? I'm pretty sure I've read in the changelog that the shipwrecks were explorable but wouldn't spawn monsters. btw, are they explorable by ships or only by flying units? ships should be able to explore them imho, to make them more useful and also cuz it really makes no sense for a griffon to explore something that is sunken

Ships can explore them and they can spawn monsters. I learned this when my C5 caravel got ambushed by a Stygian Guard and three Griffons.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

do they spawn monters automatically like barrows spitting out skeletons, or only as a result of an exploration attempt gone horribly wrong? kudos to the team if they do work like barrows and ruins

 

[BillSeurer]

I got a sea monster from one that then ate the ship that was exploring. It was my only ship at the time. Doh!

 

[xienwolf]

[SHORT VERSION]
Anybody got a hint where to start looking for the things that make the lairs tick (in XML / python files)?
[/SHORT VERSION]

[LONG VERSION]
I'd like to see how difficult it'd be to mod the lairs into "mini-roguelikes", of course not with actual maps, just several "levels".
I.e., you start with "explore level I" and then you get either a good or a bad result. Then they switch to "explore level II" and so on.
The "lower" you go, the greater the danger, but also the greater the rewards.
And you'd almost always have a fight of some kind in the first levels, but being the winner would almost always lead to a reward of some kind on a lower level.
Only once you explore the lowest level, the dungeon would disappear.
The typical dungeon would only have an average of three to five levels, but there could be some special ones with many more.
Another idea would be to limit access to "depths" based on unit strength. So a typical Scout could only explore to lvl2 (before being "too afraid" to go on), whilst a Beastmaster could explore down to 7. Some dungeons could be "infinite", i.e. you would have no unit brave enough to explore down to it's lowest levels.
[/LONG VERSION]

Thanks.
_____
rezaf

Personally I am a huge fan of this one. I look forward to Christmas break (or next summer) when I have some serious time to devote to coding and can get my Aspects up off the ground and work them in with the Dungeons. I would love it if the dungeons were multiple level affairs, each with a specific depth determined randomly at the start of the game, and with your possible results being based on the level you are exploring, and the level+strength of the unit you are using to explore with. Early floors can have minor possible results, like gain 1 or 2 XP or take 50%-75% damage. Later floors can have potentially amazing or distastrous results instead.


It'll also be pretty easy to have a delayed Dungeon appearance setup without having to place an invisible improvement. Just set a timer on the plot at game start, or a tech requirement, and trigger a dungeon discovery event when the timer runs down or the tech is discovered.

Anyway.. mad ramblings while my coughing keeps me up in the middle of the night... All I meant to say was "Cool idea, hope it happens someday "

 

[smusebaer]

How about a "homeguardunit"?
A defenceunit with move 0 that pops up with your starting settler? perhaps it could vanish after some time say 50 turn, but it prevents instant kills.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

well it's an easy fix but it should work. although of course you'd need the homeguard to pop after the settler actually BUILDS the city, otherwise you'd be forced to settle on the tile he is standing upon

 

[onedreamer]

Isn't it easier to just look at the turn counter before spawning something that can wipe out a civ ?

 

[Kael]

Isn't it easier to just look at the turn counter before spawning something that can wipe out a civ ?

The hard part is that their isnt a definite line between to easy / challenging / to hard. Some players can handle the early Ogre that spawns, some cant (Ogre's were moved to be a late game result). It depends on a lot of things. It could depend on a few turns.

And maybe the potential to get wiped out is a good thing. If its turn 4 and all you have defending your city is a warrior and your sending units in to explore a dungeon maybe thats just a bad strategy.

Its hard to find the perfect point of risk/reward and at some level its personal preference. But exploring dungeons in the early early game should always be a major risk.

 

[onedreamer]

yep you're right that you can't set an absolute constant in this, but it could still be a reference point. Much the same as saying that if by turn 200 you're still defending your cities with warriors and scouts, you're most likely to be screwed soon. It's true you shouldn't explore dungeons too soon, if you don't risk the city you at least risk the explorer anyways, but I'm thinking more of the AI actually. I've seen an unusual occurrence of civs wiped out soon in the last version, and also some oddities like civs not building any other city besides their capital (this on the Erebus map); though this last detail is most probably unrelated.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I've often seen civs that had built only one city by the end-game with 0.33 ( yes this was Erebus mapscript ) :\

 

[Caradoc]

Would it be too much of a spoiler to publish a list of possible outcomes?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

@ Charles: Did you see Kael's posts on the first page of this thread? Should be able to get the gist of it even without speaking python or whatever it is.

Re: Ai's being wiped out, personally I don't mind if one or two are, as the barbarian empires that grow up there (especially after some scorpian archers migrate over) are good challenges as well. (Not to say that the ai shouldn't be tweaked to be more lair aware, of course).

 

[Zechnophobe]

They aren't really though, a Barbarian 'empire' goes down to a handful of semi decent units. They just don't tech.

Also, for those of us who only PLAY with like 6 AI opponents (Not the 18 that I see some people do) losing two of those AI's is a really major change to the flow of the game.

 

[Zechnophobe]

The hard part is that their isnt a definite line between to easy / challenging / to hard. Some players can handle the early Ogre that spawns, some cant (Ogre's were moved to be a late game result). It depends on a lot of things. It could depend on a few turns.

And maybe the potential to get wiped out is a good thing. If its turn 4 and all you have defending your city is a warrior and your sending units in to explore a dungeon maybe thats just a bad strategy.

Its hard to find the perfect point of risk/reward and at some level its personal preference. But exploring dungeons in the early early game should always be a major risk.

I still think 'risk' is a bad antimotivator, especially early on in the game. You yourself mentioned that 'bad' things happening are generally more acceptable in the early game, because of the 'well, I'll just start a new one' option and feel. I think a lot of the balance issues of lairs is that people are doing just that... they get conquered early on, and just start a new game. Whereas when they get something truly awesome, they get positive influence and make the connection it is Good to explore lairs early... because it is FUN to get cool things.

Could we at least get Barrows and Ruins to start with Skels Lizard respectively?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Well.. this is going to sound snarky, but I don't mean it to... play with 7 now. (6 & 18 aren't the only options )

 

[Caradoc]

@ Charles: Did you see Kael's posts on the first page of this thread? Should be able to get the gist of it even without speaking python or whatever it is.

My poor brain can barely follow Python when I have a nice editor, but when it gets chopped up into these little boxes, I get pretty lost. At least I can see what kinds of monsters might be down there and that's a help.