Late-game strategic resources

[12agnar0k]

Resources may still be needed for certain buildings (Coal for Factories for example)

Yeah but no doubt unless settling/taking over a new city, you will have built the resource required buildings during the time they were invented when the resource was strategically important.

Perhaps Modern Armor, Helicopters, Jet Fighters, and some other units will end up taking both Oil and Aluminum in the final version of the game. Making Mechanized Infantry resourceless, as you note, is another option (and it seemed the most likely option).

I hope that Paratroopers aren't considered the standard resourceless unit of the Modern Era.

No suggestion so far that any unit in any era requires two of any resource, i.e a Knight simply requires horses not Iron&Horses, while I don't think this is very realistic, it is probably better for game play reasons.

Why do you hope that Paratroopers are not the "resourceless" unit of the Modern Era, to be they seem to be the perfectly suited candidate, they only have a gun aftera;;, they are the most comparable to the last resources unit which would be Infantry I guess. (though they do call on a plane to magically drop them, but so do archers call on whatever strategic resources a boat might use to magically transport them, so its not really a valid arguement, its an ability like embarking, and one can argue no plane exists to transport them, its just magic)

 

[SuperSmash5]

That's when you wipe them all out with the Giant Death Robot.

 

[Ahriman]

Why do you hope that Paratroopers are not the "resourceless" unit of the Modern Era, to be they seem to be the perfectly suited candidate,

Paratroopers are an intensely specialist unit; rare elites.

The resourceless unit should be standard infantry (but with vehicles).

And as for "realism".... paratroopers surely need aircraft.

The other point to note is that they're trying to encourage a shifting balance of military power over time. Maybe you have lots of iron and horses, and can be an ancient and medieval menace. But the guys who were weak back then might come into their own if they have a ton of oil for a modern air force and navy, but then lose it once the game moves on to aluminium (a bit of a weird resource, as its hardly rare past the 1950s, but there aren't many other sensible options).
I think these kinds of dynamics will be fun.

 

[Niniux]

I really like the idea of limited resources like this. You'll have to war or trade for these resources if your nation is resource poor. I can imagine situations where your neighbor has some oil which you covet and you have poor relationships with them anyway. So, you prep for war, call up your allies and get all the resources you can get your hands on and then blitz into their territory to secure your own.

Just seems like it adds another layer to your overall strategy.

 

[The Tollan]

Why do you hope that Paratroopers are not the "resourceless" unit of the Modern Era, to be they seem to be the perfectly suited candidate, they only have a gun aftera;;, they are the most comparable to the last resources unit which would be Infantry I guess. (though they do call on a plane to magically drop them, but so do archers call on whatever strategic resources a boat might use to magically transport them, so its not really a valid arguement, its an ability like embarking, and one can argue no plane exists to transport them, its just magic)

I hope that Paratroopers are useful at their specialist role of conducting operations in enemy territory after the airborne drop. If they are used en masse as a standard resourceless unit then that could theoretically jeopardize this role if the Paratrooper's stats were to be based around the idea of being the standard resourceless unit. I know that the stats are already set but I think that this theoretical point is important.

Also, the specialized infantry force would not be the best unit to portray for the standard infantry role. Paratroopers are an elite special force with certain types of specific missions.

I agree with Ahriman that Mechanized Infantry is best for the standard, general purpose infantry role. Unfortunately the unit doesn't actually have soldier graphics but that can probably be edited without too much trouble. Still, this unit represents the modern infantry force with the combat vehicles. If for some reason Mechanized Infantry were not to fill this role then it would be better to have some type of resourceless infantry that is used en masse rather than Paratroopers. Either way, Mechanized Infantry cannot be useful with the current stats if they require the exact same resource to build and maintan as Modern Armor and Helicopters.

 

[Arkangelus]

I really like the idea of limited resources like this. You'll have to war or trade for these resources if your nation is resource poor. I can imagine situations where your neighbor has some oil which you covet and you have poor relationships with them anyway. So, you prep for war, call up your allies and get all the resources you can get your hands on and then blitz into their territory to secure your own.

Just seems like it adds another layer to your overall strategy.

And that would be great The potential problem I was thinking about though was thus:

In ancient times, you'll only ever have two units competing for your iron: Swordsmen and catapults. Strategic choice on what you want to have more of. Later, between Longswords, Cannon, and a strong navy. Still strategic.

Oil you have to split between powerful land units (but you can do without), air force (either have one, or none), and navy (vital or you'll have ironclads vs destroyers).

Even later than that, your aluminium is going to be split between about 8 different choices, and is vital to have competitive, not just elite, units, in your army, navy, AND air force. Unless its extremely abundant (in which case, why have the requirement at all?), you're going to have to cut back somewhere.

There's also the issue of how in the late game, all the resource wars will be over a substance that in reality is plentiful and there's never been any significant shortage or wars fought over, unlike oil which is extremely valuable. Plus, the probable way around this will be to have an upgraded army, but deliberately use antiqued equipment in your airforce or navy, using Spitfires and Lancasters in the air to support your state of the art MLRS launchers and M1 Abrams tanks.

 

[qwerty25]

I really like the idea of limited resources like this. You'll have to war or trade for these resources if your nation is resource poor. I can imagine situations where your neighbor has some oil which you covet and you have poor relationships with them anyway. So, you prep for war, call up your allies and get all the resources you can get your hands on and then blitz into their territory to secure your own.

Just seems like it adds another layer to your overall strategy.

Well there's only 2 main strategic resources you need in the late game and that is oil and aluminum. There's uranium but you don't really need it to defend or attack.

Aluminum is also the most abundant metal in the Earth's crust.

 

[Zhahz]

I like that they're limiting units with resources. You'll value units more, value capturing strategic land more, and overall have to think and strategize more. You may have to make more decisions and balance your forces better (due to limited resources). Good stuff.

 

[DeepQantas]

I really like the idea of combat becoming more and more unbalanced towards the end.

If you're an aggressive superpower you need all the edge you can get to control the world and take that domination victory in time. If you're not a superpower then you'll be fighting a desperate defensive war with outdated units... making your eventual Utopia project victory all the more epic.

And it's realistic, too. I don't think there has been a single war after WW2 between equally matched opponents.

 

[Thormodr]

I really like the idea of combat becoming more and more unbalanced towards the end.

If you're an aggressive superpower you need all the edge you can get to control the world and take that domination victory in time. If you're not a superpower then you'll be fighting a desperate defensive war with outdated units... making your eventual Utopia project victory all the more epic.

And it's realistic, too. I don't think there has been a single war after WW2 between equally matched opponents.

The Iran - Iraq war?

 

[DeepQantas]

Point for you.

 

[Polobo]

I agree that it is likely infantry and the like will make up the bulk of ones army while the later modern units will provide added firepower where necessary for attack or defense.

An armored car unit, though, would be a doable intermediate unit between infantry and mechanized.

AA/AT units should either be mobile (with resource requirement) or "stationary" (and no resource requirements); maybe they are I haven't reviewed the modern units that in-depth.

Maybe they will have aluminum give 5-10 hits per resource instead of the usual 2-4; the issue I'd have with numerically abundant aluminum is that, with all the early resources (strategic and luxury) considered as well, it seems like every possible hill tile would end up holding some kind of resource if entire armies were supposed to be constructed of mech/armor/jets/MA.

 

[DeepQantas]

Wikipedia says smelting Aluminum is particularly energy intensive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_smelting

And of course Aluminum could just be a stand-in for all sorts of modern composites, metals used in electronics and other materials required in hi-tech warfare.


You know, it might be pretty cool to have a building that converts Iron into Aluminum. But it requires electricity and one specialist for each resource converted. During war time you'd take people out of culture buildings and libraries and make 'em work the factories!

 

[Xetal]

Wikipedia says smelting Aluminum is particularly energy intensive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_smelting

And of course Aluminum could just be a stand-in for all sorts of modern composites, metals used in electronics and other materials required in hi-tech warfare.


You know, it might be pretty cool to have a building that converts Iron into Aluminum. But it requires electricity and one specialist for each resource converted. During war time you'd take people out of culture buildings and libraries and make 'em work the factories!

I always aluminum to mean "aluminum, titanium, and other modern metals of strategic importance".

 

[Lyoncet]

I always aluminum to mean "aluminum, titanium, and other modern metals of strategic importance".

That sounds about right to me. Would also make it even more reasonable to have many more aluminum nodes than other strategic resources.

 

[The Tollan]

These are unit statistics for three major land units (note Helicopter probably has a bonus against tank units and I would guess will not be able to receive defensive bonuses):


Mechanized Infantry
Movement: 4; Strength: 50; Ranged Strength: 0; Cost: ?; Required Resource: Aluminum
Technology: Electronics


Helicopter Gunship
Movement: 6; Strength: 50; Ranged Strength: 0; Cost: ?; Required Resource: Aluminum
Technology: Rocketry

Modern Armor
Movement: 4; Strength: 80; Ranged Strength: 0; Cost: 400; Required Resource: Aluminum
Technology: Lasers

This seems to confirm Ahriman's argument that Mechanized Infantry is not too useful under the current statistics if it requires aluminum. The main purpose would be to have them fortify a few sites for defensive purposes. Although we do not know how much two of the units cost to build that probably will not have a huge impact on the utility of each unit.

 

[Xetal]

They would have an easier time if they gave a value of each resource node.

Say for an example that a resource node provides 10 resources of that type. Then have each unit take a certain amount of resources.

For example (using 10 resources/node): Modern Armor might require 3 oils and 5 aluminums. Mechanized infantry might require 1 oil and 3 aluminums, etc...

A battleship might require 6 oil, a destroyer might require 4, an aircraft carrier might require 4. A nuclear submarine might require 5 uranium and 3 aluminum.

etc...

 

[vusak]

any possibility that aluminium benefits from some recycling mechanic? as we all know, recycling aluminium seems to be all over the place, maybe a tech or policy or building allows you to get +X from each aluminium resource node?

 

[Lyoncet]

These are unit statistics for three major land units (note Helicopter probably has a bonus against tank units and I would guess will not be able to receive defensive bonuses):


Mechanized Infantry
Movement: 4; Strength: 50; Ranged Strength: 0; Cost: ?; Required Resource: Aluminum
Technology: Electronics


Helicopter Gunship
Movement: 6; Strength: 50; Ranged Strength: 0; Cost: ?; Required Resource: Aluminum
Technology: Rocketry

Modern Armor
Movement: 4; Strength: 80; Ranged Strength: 0; Cost: 400; Required Resource: Aluminum
Technology: Lasers

This seems to confirm Ahriman's argument that Mechanized Infantry is not too useful under the current statistics if it requires aluminum. The main purpose would be to have them fortify a few sites for defensive purposes. Although we do not know how much two of the units cost to build that probably will not have a huge impact on the utility of each unit.

Well, MA is also earlier in the tech tree than the others. It's at electronics, which is a 1st-tier Modern tech. Rocketry is second-tier Modern (and on a different tech path) and Lasers is a 3rd-tier Modern (and a different tech path than the two above).

Plus, from last-tier Modern, you just need to go Telegraph – Electronics for MI, and need to go Radio & Flight – Radar – Rocketry for Gunships and Combustion & Radio & Flight – Radar – Lasers for Modern Armor. So while yeah, MI probably won't see that much use from dedicated warmongers, it'll still have a solid place in Civ. (Also, there may be some bonuses or disadvantages on these units that we haven't seen.)

 

[Louis XXIV]

The Iran - Iraq war?

Still, that was a good reflection of cheap infantry on one side to overcome armor (the human wave strategy employed by Iran).

BTW, on the Modern Armor/Mech Inf debate, keep in mind that relative costs could be a factor as well.

Although with the Giant Death Robots replacing Modern Armor as the most expensive unit, it's possible that Mech Inf will have to be resource free to balance everything out.