Late start scenario development thread

Small suggestion: Add an independent city on the NW-most tile of Wales to represent Gwynedd, the pre-eminent Welsh kingdom by this point (Caernarfon maybe?). Cardiff could be removed or put under English control, as I believe it was in 1200.
 
AbsintheRed said:
You can PM Leoreth about it
Click to expand...

I did. waiting for result :)

Made some further tests, in the northen region.

Sweeden's first uhv is doable, basicly they are fine, only the known autoplay problem
Norway is in bad shape, hopeless to fulfill any uhv atm.
Denmark is doomed, with two city, no army(3 huksarl) and such a bad city placement, no city in a core province, they need lots of work. have no civics!
Kiev dies in 1275 as a clockwork. They need lots of army and a lot more army even for AI.
 
DC123456789 said:
Small suggestion: Add an independent city on the NW-most tile of Wales to represent Gwynedd, the pre-eminent Welsh kingdom by this point (Caernarfon maybe?). Cardiff could be removed or put under English control, as I believe it was in 1200.
Click to expand...

I did include an independent city in Wales (Cardiff) to represent the independent Welsh Kingdom. I thought that city was historically more important. I don't mind changing Cardiff with another city. But I think 2 cities in that area makes it too crowded.

gilgames said:
I did. waiting for result :)

Made some further tests, in the northen region.

Sweeden's first uhv is doable, basicly they are fine, only the known autoplay problem
Norway is in bad shape, hopeless to fulfill any uhv atm.
Denmark is doomed, with two city, no army(3 huksarl) and such a bad city placement, no city in a core province, they need lots of work. have no civics!
Kiev dies in 1275 as a clockwork. They need lots of army and a lot more army even for AI.
Click to expand...

All civs that spawn after 1200 are supposed to be not much different than the 500 AD scenario. The autoplay is a known problem which Absinthe is working on.

As said, not all UHV are supposed to be doable. Especially UHV with an end date close after 1200. These UHV aren't designed for a start so late and can't be made doable without making the scenario very ahistorical. If you want to go for these UHV, you should play the 500 AD scenario. I don't mind if some small tweaks will make an UHV playable and fun. But some need huge changes which go against the design of the scenario.
I don't mind adding a few units to the Norse so they have a small chance to achieve the UHV. But they will probably need a very huge stack which will break the game.

Did you see Roskilde and Ribe as Denmark? They are definitely in their core. Also, I didn't place the cities so that they are the most powerful cities possible. I placed them so the historical important cities are present. That means that some aren't the strongest possible cities. You should cope with that.

Kiev is supposed to be killed by the Mongols in the 13th century, just like the 500 AD scenario.

The no civics seems to be a bug in the technology acquisition. All civs start with no techs at all. (And therefore they can't have civics or a state religion). No need to report this bug anymore for any civ.

gilgames said:
I made some further tests

Byzanc: too few worker, no access to horse at start, very few city, no extra visibility so their uhv is impossible in this state.

Arabs: they have no arabic knowledge, have no state religion, cannot change religion, none of their city have manor house, otherwise seems ok, uhv might be doable if mongols hit will be softer.

Morocco: no arabic knowledge, no starting settler(its a must) marrakesh starving at start, hav no preset civics at all. next to prebuilt walls you can build kashba too. Oran's location a bit wierd, got no extra sight.

general problems: no civ has enough workers, not enough military (i.e. morrocco took recently andalusia, with crossbows?) oversee unique buildings, might be a problem there.
Click to expand...

Byzantium:
I limited the amount of workers for most civs because there are already many prebuild improvements. So you don't need as many.
They have extra visibility, but not as much as other civs.
What do you mean with "very few city". I think their current setup accurately represent the Byzantine Empire it was in 1200 AD IRL.
The lack of horses is because, compared to the 500 AD scenario, they don't own Caesarea. But I agree they should have access to it. I will place a horse resource in their empire. (Which I think I will make disappear at a certain point to keep both scenarios in sync.)
What should be buffed to make the UHV possible? (Again, Byz could be one of the civs that isn't supposed to be doable)

Arabia/Morocco. Techs aren't done yet. (All civs have Aragon techs now) I will give the Arabic Knowledge for now. The final tech distribution will be done later.
Why would Morocco need settlers? You start with more cities than you would have in the 500 AD scenario.
Both do start with a pre-known area. I was thinking about adding Northern Africa to the pre-known area of Morocco, but I decided against it as it is much larger than you would know if you start in the 500 AD scenario and discovered it yourself.
Good call on the UB. I will fix them.
The lack of units represents some units dying conquering Andalusia. Furthermore, the Spanish reconquista is about to start, so these cities should be conquered soon after the start of the scenario. So they can't be well defended.

It seems you miss the point of this scenario regarding UHV. It is meant to be an accurate representation of the world in 1200 AD. That means some are weaker than they would be if you played them yourself.
 
It is impossible to play for Muscovy. Autoplay does not work, loses after closing the window with the any advisor
 
SanJose said:
It is impossible to play for Muscovy. Autoplay does not work, loses after closing the window with the any advisor
Click to expand...

We are aware of that. Absinthe is working on it.
(Didn't I mention it somewhere :confused:)

Can someone besides gilgames confirm that civ doesn't start with civics/techs/state religion/pre known area? It works fine for me.
 
You might be right and i missed the point, but then what is it? whats the point in the late start? to accelerate later civs autoplay? or tell me which uhv's meant to be doable, so we wont cross each others intention. Morocco cant build a settler till 1227, but can take tarabulus so might be able to fulfill the first uhv! which is always a good option, all you need for it is a settler/city for morocco province.
 
Reducing loading time for later civs is indeed 1 point for the late start scenario. Another point is to give some civs an alternative start to play with. For example, France in the 1200 AD scenario will look very different than if you played as France from 500 AD. (Would you allow England to keep those cities in France or you do reconquer them ASAP?) Some UHV will be more challenging or provide a different challenge because of this. But others will be impossible because of this.

Do note that not everyone is playing for the UHV. Some players just want to play the game with an alternate start.

I am able to build a settler in 5 turns in Marrakesh as Morocco so you can build a city in Morocco in 1215 AD. But if it was really necessary, this would be a good example for changes I like to make to make an UHV doable. (Their culture UHV might need a buff to be doable, but that needs a lot of testing and balancing)

It's a bit hard to say for each UHV which can be doable. Generally, the UHV with an ending date between 1200 and 1300 shouldn't be doable. If you play them and have the feeling it is absolutely impossible, it generally isn't supposed to be doable. But if you feel like you nearly missed it, please let me know what changes I should make to make it possible, but still fun to play without making the starting situation completely ahistorical. I mean, I don't mind if it is slightly ahistorical if that makes an UHV doable, but the change shouldn't be too big.
 
Alright, the AI autoplay updates are up on the SVN
You can now try later civs too in the 1200 AD scenario
 
merijn_v1 said:
I did include an independent city in Wales (Cardiff) to represent the independent Welsh Kingdom. I thought that city was historically more important. I don't mind changing Cardiff with another city. But I think 2 cities in that area makes it too crowded.
Click to expand...

It was a fairly important city, but only under the English (it wasn't really anything under the Welsh). My main issue with it though is that Cardiff was controlled by the English since the late 11th century and pretty much the entire time afterwards, so it doesn't really make any sense to use it to represent the independent Welsh in 1200, which at this point in time was mostly centred around the Kingdom of Gwynedd.

Also, maybe add Trebizond as a Byzantine city? It was certainly important at this point in time.
 
DC123456789 said:
It was a fairly important city, but only under the English (it wasn't really anything under the Welsh). My main issue with it though is that Cardiff was controlled by the English since the late 11th century and pretty much the entire time afterwards, so it doesn't really make any sense to use it to represent the independent Welsh in 1200, which at this point in time was mostly centred around the Kingdom of Gwynedd.

Also, maybe add Trebizond as a Byzantine city? It was certainly important at this point in time.
Click to expand...

Seconded. Cardiff shouldn't be independent in 1200.
IMO we have 3 options:
- Cardiff as an English city
- instead of Cardiff a Welsh (independent) city, Caernarfon sounds good to me, but I'm no means an expert in the area.
- have both an English Cardiff and an indy city to represent the Kingdom of Gwynedd. Probably too crowded though.

I prefer the second option, but the other 2 works as well

I also think we should add Trebizond
 
SanJose said:
It is impossible to play for Muscovy. Autoplay does not work, loses after closing the window with the any advisor
Click to expand...

Muscovy still don't work though, even when autoplay starts correctly for the other civs

EDIT: AFAIK that's the only civ, the Dutch and the Ottomans run fine.
 
Few thoughts:

-Palermo should be a much larger city, it was one of the largest, wealthiest and most important cities in Europe at the time, larger than Paris. It (and possibly Naples) should also belong to Germany, possibly even the capital; the King of Sicily became King of Germany in 1196 and spent most of his time ruling from Palermo. In fact, it was probably Frederick's absolute rule and focus on Italy that caused the end of his dynasty and the collapse of Imperial authority, from which it never completely recovered.

-Hungary should have more cities. They didn't cities to rival Constantinople (less urban population in general), but their total population was very large. At the time Hungary was one of the largest and most powerful states in Europe. There should be a few more cities in the empty part of their core region, though possibly some should be razed when the Mongols turn up.

-England should start unstable, we are talking the period where England had one of the largest and most significant rebellions in their history. It should be the sort of start where holding onto your existing territory is a major achievement.
 
The Low King said:
Few thoughts:

-Palermo should be a much larger city, it was one of the largest, wealthiest and most important cities in Europe at the time, larger than Paris. It (and possibly Naples) should also belong to Germany, possibly even the capital; the King of Sicily became King of Germany in 1196 and spent most of his time ruling from Palermo. In fact, it was probably Frederick's absolute rule and focus on Italy that caused the end of his dynasty and the collapse of Imperial authority, from which it never completely recovered.

-Hungary should have more cities. They didn't cities to rival Constantinople (less urban population in general), but their total population was very large. At the time Hungary was one of the largest and most powerful states in Europe. There should be a few more cities in the empty part of their core region, though possibly some should be razed when the Mongols turn up.

-England should start unstable, we are talking the period where England had one of the largest and most significant rebellions in their history. It should be the sort of start where holding onto your existing territory is a major achievement.
Click to expand...

I agree with all points.
For gameplay reasons I wouldn't add the Italian cities to Germany though, but those cities should be much bigger.
I do feel that Hungary is underrepresented in the scenario, while England is way too stable.
 
@merijn
Noticed that city names added in the scenario file won't always show up perfectly ingame.
At least it might happen with long names and/or special characters.
It's mostly noticable in the Religion and Company Screen, just check Gyulefehervar with Hungary in revision 1194.

In my latest commit I added a small function in CvEventManager, which renames cities to their correct CNM name on the start of the scenario.
For now it is only set up for Hungary (as I noticed that Kiev for example don't everywhere have the same names as their CNM, and I'm sure it's intentional), but you can add other civs/cities there if you want to have long/accented names in the scenario file.

PS: With it you don't even have to add the exact city names in the scenario file, so you don't have to double check everything in the WB.
You can just add Hun_City_1 or whatever you like, it will be renamed on the start of the game.
 
merijn_v1 said:
Ok. I'll check the code to see how it works.
Click to expand...

Actually it's just a couple lines in CvRFCEventHandler.py, under onGameStart.
Only calling the citynamemanager for some cities, at the very start of the scenario.
 
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