Later cavalry and aggressive/charismatic

[futurehermit]

I was reading the BtS info thread and came across a couple of points of interest that I thought would make for some interesting discussion.

The first is that cavalry is being pushed back to require rifling! Those domination victories will be coming later now for sure

What do you think renaissance fighting will be about now? I can see grenadiers being the dominant unit of choice. The fact that cavalry are being pushed back so late, and that chem can be lightbulbed, means that there isn't going to be much that will be able to stand up to early grenadiers...

The second is that one of the new leaders is going to be the (in my opinion, all powerful) trait combo of aggressive-charismatic.

Fun...fun...

 

[Hackapell]

well, calvary are being pushed back, but you missed what will be in its stead, the curiasseur, a very french unit that will probably have slightly more power than a grenadier to balance that out(still waiting for a finninsh civ with Hackapell as UU, firaxis!) I imagine Renaissance fighting will be all about the tech lead, and leveraging your full-fledged economy to rush your units into the fray. I also imagine that musketmen will be far more important, because they have no natural counter. Cannons will also play a much larger role in cracking open cities and attacking maurading raiding parties of grenadiers.

The Arg/cha combo is killer, but remember that the Celts have a mediocre UU and a horrible UB, so it all balances out. now,if the Dun gave free Guerilla promotions to all units, those would be some monstrous SoD Boudinca could assemble!

 

[mice]

It'll depend on what bonuses the curiasseur and the musket get. They stated that they intended to extend the life of the musket so thay must be thinking along the lines of boosting the musket. This could mean a bonus vs something.

Hopefully the curriasuer will have bonuses against the grenadier so it's a balanced field late renaissance

 

[KMadCandy]

i managed to forget at least once, and i think twice , while rushing to cavalry that i needed gunpowder to actually make them, not just military tradition. i'm sure i'll be pretty confused for a while when the expansion comes out, about this and other changes!

 

[mice]

i managed to forget at least once, and i think twice , while rushing to cavalry that i needed gunpowder to actually make them, not just military tradition.

I guess the Cuirassier will not need gunpowder so it may still be an early unit when combined with a Liberalism lightbulb strat. Maybe Cuirassier plus drafted maces.

 

[kniteowl]

well, calvary are being pushed back, but you missed what will be in its stead, the curiasseur, a very french unit that will probably have slightly more power than a grenadier to balance that out(still waiting for a finninsh civ with Hackapell as UU, firaxis!) I imagine Renaissance fighting will be all about the tech lead, and leveraging your full-fledged economy to rush your units into the fray. I also imagine that musketmen will be far more important, because they have no natural counter. Cannons will also play a much larger role in cracking open cities and attacking maurading raiding parties of grenadiers.

The Arg/cha combo is killer, but remember that the Celts have a mediocre UU and a horrible UB, so it all balances out. now,if the Dun gave free Guerilla promotions to all units, those would be some monstrous SoD Boudinca could assemble!

Well Gunpowder units can promote through the Guerilla line and the Walls/Dun don't obsolete till Rifling so She could technically build an army of Combat1 + Guerilla1 Muskets and Grenadiers or she could draft a whole lot of Muskets with Combat1 and Guerilla1.

 

[automator]

One thing is certain. I'll be using a lot more Machine Guns once the expansion is out.

 

[futurehermit]

The cuirrasier will likely be weaker than cav (obviously) though so I don't think it will be the dominant unit cav currently are.

They will have to counter grens I'm thinking or else grens will simply replace cav as a slightly-less-dominant-but-still-pretty-unstoppable unit.

I wouldn't mind if they boosted muskets. As they are currently I only really use them for defending cities and drafted muscle to support my cav.

As for agg-cha, who the heck needs a uu or ub or starting techs for that matter with that trait combo Seriously, free combat one PLUS cheaper promotions...O-M-G!!!

The damage this leader is going to be able to do in the hands of a half-decent (i.e., human) warmongerer is going to be completely insane

 

[lukep]

A cuirassier *is* a gunpowder unit (very heavy cav).
French, Swedish and Russian napoleonic units.

Althought they were mostly used as charge, and so used their saber, they were also equiped with muskets.
If logic is respected they should have very high bonus charging (attaking) in the open rifles or grens.

 

[kniteowl]

Just a question but does that mean the Conquistador will replace the cuirassier instead of the knight in BTS???

I wouldn't know, I haven't studied history formally so yeah lol

 

[GeneralMatt]

Just a question but does that mean the Conquistador will replace the cuirassier instead of the knight in BTS???

I wouldn't know, I haven't studied history formally so yeah lol

I wouldn't know, it depends in when the curiassers appear. I would say it would still be the knight as th conquistador came about right near the end of the medieval age..

 

[Hackapell]

Just a question but does that mean the Conquistador will replace the cuirassier instead of the knight in BTS???

I wouldn't know, I haven't studied history formally so yeah lol

I don't think so, but they may do that. The conquistadores were the forerunner to the cuirasseur, but they didn't have as powerful muskets and relied heavily on their lances. HOwever, they were in place at about the same time, so Firaxis may do that.

 

[PublicEnemy]

I have to say, I'm not looking forward to BTS.

There's been no mention of getting rid of the ridiculous free tech with Liberalism, so unless they change the order of GP techs we're going to see the same old lightbulb your way to Liberalism strategy.

Then again, hopefully a revamped tech tree will make the difference.


Back on topic I would say that on the surface Agg/Cha seems very powerful, we'll just have to see what changes if any are made to those traits.

 

[futurehermit]

Well, if they made some other lightbulbing routes more attractive, then I don't think people would constantly be beelining liberalism.

For example, I'd love to lightbulb more with GMs, but the fact that they get less beakers than a GS and the mediocre techs are much harder to clear away leads to GSs being the more attractive option. Not to mention that the GL gives two free GSs.

I mean, for pete's sake, I would love to get a GM off a wonder early on in preparation for bulbing CS, but they had to go and put a stupid free priest on the ToA ruining a good option there...

 

[PublicEnemy]

Well, if they made some other lightbulbing routes more attractive, then I don't think people would constantly be beelining liberalism.

For example, I'd love to lightbulb more with GMs, but the fact that they get less beakers than a GS and the mediocre techs are much harder to clear away leads to GSs being the more attractive option. Not to mention that the GL gives two free GSs.

I mean, for pete's sake, I would love to get a GM off a wonder early on in preparation for bulbing CS, but they had to go and put a stupid free priest on the ToA ruining a good option there...

You give some good examples of what I'm talking about. Giving us some alternatives to lightbulbing towards Lib.

In vanilla civ we had the Civil Service slingshot but Warlords helped do away with that. I'm hoping that BTS can make some different, but equally effective routes through the early tech tree, giving the game some variations.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Great Merchants will now be able to start corporations so they're a little more attractive, but that won't come til later in the game though.

I too grow weary of the race to Liberalism, but I always find myself chasing it not only for the free tech but also for denial.

Looking forward to Cha/Agg though, you can get a taste of it in the Rise of Rome scenario, Hannibal is Cha/Agg/Fin. I doubt it will be too unbalanced though as it lacks any real economic benefit aside from the +1 happy face.

As for more units that will be great to though on normal speed the renaissance era sounds like you won't be building many curaissiers though if they add more gunpowder units older units will be getting obsolete fairly quickly.

 

[Meister]

I have a nasty way to prolong the lifespan of musketmen ...
Just make the research of Chemistry requires Printing Press


Anyway,with the current tech tree, Chemistry (Grens) is just one tech away from the Musketmen , and the difference of strength is 3 (12-9),33% increase of musketmen ...

I don't think there would be great bonuses to Musketmen to make them useful under the same tech tree...

 

[cabert]

I have a nasty way to prolong the lifespan of musketmen ...
Just make the research of Chemistry requires Printing Press


Anyway,with the current tech tree, Chemistry (Grens) is just one tech away from the Musketmen , and the difference of strength is 3 (12-9),33% increase of musketmen ...

I don't think there would be great bonuses to Musketmen to make them useful under the same tech tree...

Now, the musketmen are only of value because they can be drafted.
The fact that grenadiers can be built soon after them isn't really relevant, since grenadiers can't be drafted.

 

[futurehermit]

Great Merchants will now be able to start corporations so they're a little more attractive, but that won't come til later in the game though.

I too grow weary of the race to Liberalism, but I always find myself chasing it not only for the free tech but also for denial.

Looking forward to Cha/Agg though, you can get a taste of it in the Rise of Rome scenario, Hannibal is Cha/Agg/Fin. I doubt it will be too unbalanced though as it lacks any real economic benefit aside from the +1 happy face.

As for more units that will be great to though on normal speed the renaissance era sounds like you won't be building many curaissiers though if they add more gunpowder units older units will be getting obsolete fairly quickly.

It's actually +2 happy faces (with monument) during a crucial period of the game. And you say it like it's no big deal, but it's actually HUGE, especially at higher levels. It makes a HUGE difference! That's 2 more cottages, 2 more farms, 2 more hills, 2 more specialists (assuming sufficient food), etc. Across multiple cities early on...HUGE!

On another topic...making grens require pp wouldn't do much. I routinely get pp before chem and it doesn't really slow me down. Both can be lightbulbed easily. It's true the value of the musket is in its draftability. The problem with it is that it doesn't do much other than hold a city well and provide some mediocre stack defence. If they want it to DO something, they have to make it CAPABLE of doing something. For one thing they would have to do better against fortified longbows. If they did a bit better against longbows, I'd definitely use them more.

 

[cabert]

about muskets : maybe they're not intended to be used more
Early gunpowder weapons weren't light, weren't efficient, weren't fast!