Later cavalry and aggressive/charismatic

[futurehermit]

Well, supposedly the designers want muskets to be used more post-xpac...

 

[Chemtech]

Given when the chinese first created gunpowder (as a drug/elixer not a weapon) they could move gunpowder much earlier in the tree - I'm not saying that muskets should come very early - but they certainly could be moved up, away from grenadiers by quite a bit.

 

[cabert]

Given when the chinese first created gunpowder (as a drug/elixer not a weapon) they could move gunpowder much earlier in the tree - I'm not saying that muskets should come very early - but they certainly could be moved up, away from grenadiers by quite a bit.

that's true
maybe gunpowder after mining?
to be honest, the chinese already had gunpowder and paper. education is arguable, but not impossible.
Meaning that from an historical point of view, the tech tree isn't bad.
The bad thing is this useless unit, which could be less useless if they can effectively fight the cuirassiers.

 

[r_rolo1]

Historically speaking, musketmen fit an anti-melee role, especially against swiss infantry ( they had a hard time with cavs, needed pikes for anti-cav. And sometimes Xbows were used to reinforce them as well ( a xbow have a bigger penetrating power than early muskets and had better precision and comparable reload time ). But making muskets an anti-melee unit would be a bad move...
About cuirassers... if the rest of the game can be used as a example, they will be anti-grenadier or anti musket units... (more inclined for anti grenadier... rock, paper,scissor )

 

[futurehermit]

cuirs better counter grens or grens will be the new cav i think.

i don't think we need muskets to counter cuirs. i don't mind them being a kind of utility unit, but i'd like them to be more respectable against fortified longbows. I just can't help feeling like cr maces do such a better job than combat muskets...

 

[50_dollar_bag]

It's actually +2 happy faces (with monument) during a crucial period of the game. And you say it like it's no big deal, but it's actually HUGE, especially at higher levels. It makes a HUGE difference! That's 2 more cottages, 2 more farms, 2 more hills, 2 more specialists (assuming sufficient food), etc. Across multiple cities early on...HUGE!

You sound like you're arguing the Charismatic alone is over powered. Take Hannibal, if you can work 2 extra Financial cottages isn't that better than working 2 extra non-finanical cottages, Or how about if they create a PHI/CHA leader that's 2 extra philosophical specialists. I still don't feel that AGG/CHA is going to be way overpowered over any other CHA/??? combo, sure you get a free promotion, but so does PRO i.e. Churchill who gets 2 free promos.

To have a go at what Boudicca will be like I modded Brennus' traits, First start i was isolated 2nd was pretty fun in the war years (cool when my first battle got my Gallic up to CR3 but that can happen with any CHA leader the only thing different was the free Combat 1) But when you're not warring you're effectively only Charismatic.

But onto Muskets, perhaps the could put in a more advanced type of musket like a flint-lock or match-lock unit available with replaceable parts, jsut a thought.

 

[Ecofarm]

The tech race used to end at CS, now liberalism; it will probably be pushed back in some manner. Random personalities, no tech trading.

 

[T.rex]

I think Musketmen should have a +50% bonus versus melee units sinse swordsmanship reached a high order by that period. It would make musketmen a more attractive option to counter other civs macemen for example.

 

[kniteowl]

I think Musketmen should have a +50% bonus versus melee units sinse swordsmanship reached a high order by that period. It would make musketmen a more attractive option to counter other civs macemen for example.

there's no point, you can use crossbowmen their cheaper and come earlier.

The only usefulness if the musketmen had that bonus would be they don't require a resource to build and you can draft them.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Musketmen ignore walls and castles, that's about the only thing going for them I find, so you can attack before you have got rid of all the defence bonus with cats. Apart from the -1 pop and +3 unhappy you get if you draft them of course. They need to have an extended lifespan in BtS for sure.

EDIT: Of course they can't get CR promos and you can't upgrade anything to muskets so they are doubly bad.

 

[david7x6]

I'm not sure that Aggressive/Charismatic will be too powerful, it is surely a strong combo, but when fighting an AI, the extra strength promotion isn't that useful to melee and gunpowder units, aggressive alone can get a shock unit with a barracks, so most of the time you may get an extra 10% strength, which amounts to perhaps one fewer catapult sac.

Also, blitz is useless and unavailable to gunpowder units, and having a few units promoted with commando doesn't help much, since the AI likes to pick off stray units. The extra combat promotions can help somewhat in the field, but catapults close the gap.

 

[futurehermit]

If you guys think that free combat one combined with cheaper promotions isn't absolutely insane then you aren't the warmongering type or don't play at high skill levels. I was certain that it would be a forbidden combo like ind/phi. To have cr3 units very early with combat one and then upgrade them to maces and later grens you can have an extremely powerful army that can mop the floor with anyone in no time flat.

Not to mention that heroic epic and west point are opened faster meaning an even faster route to very powerful units being pumped out of your military city...

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Not to mention that heroic epic and west point are opened faster meaning an even faster route to very powerful units being pumped out of your military city...

That applies to all Charismatic leaders right?

And for the record I'm a fairly competent Emperor level player. I like to Warmonger but I also like to build too so maybe I just don't get that excited over pure warmongering traits. CHA/AGG isn't going to be useful in every game, take an isolated start or distant first opponent, Whereas IND/PHI or FIN/ORG are going to be useful in pretty much every situation.

I'd be more excited if they put in CRE/PHI.

 

[futurehermit]

It does apply to all charismatic leaders, of course, but not all charismatic leaders are able to pump free combat one units from that powerful early military city!

Yes, it's true that cha-agg works best with a close first opponent, but they still work later in the game. Even when isolated I'll go to war later in the game. Admittedly, it wouldn't be the best when isolated, but most games you're not isolated.

Cre/Phi would be a phenomenal combo, I agree.

I just think that cha/agg is going to be extraordinarily powerful in the hands of warmongering human players. Too powerful in my estimation, but I guess time will tell...

 

[cabert]

It does apply to all charismatic leaders, of course, but not all charismatic leaders are able to pump free combat one units from that powerful early military city!

Yes, it's true that cha-agg works best with a close first opponent, but they still work later in the game. Even when isolated I'll go to war later in the game. Admittedly, it wouldn't be the best when isolated, but most games you're not isolated.

Cre/Phi would be a phenomenal combo, I agree.

I just think that cha/agg is going to be extraordinarily powerful in the hands of warmongering human players. Too powerful in my estimation, but I guess time will tell...

is cha/agg stronger than cha/pro or agg/pro or cha/imp?
I don't think so.
You were talking about CR3 units. the combat 1 free promotion isn't doing a lot for the CR3 units.
I mean you still need to be level 4, which you won't be faster (except the cheap barracks) with agg.

On the other side, imp/cha will have earlier GG, for more settling opportunities = earlier CR3 units.
And protective gunpowder units are just as good as aggressive gunpowder units IMHO.
So is agg/cha overpowered? not in my opinion.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Cha+Agg means you have a equal or stronger army than everyone else from the stone age.

10% stronger unit will up you winning percentage from 50% to 66.7% most of the time when fighing the same unit from other civs.

If you choose to use this army early and you could win 2/3 of the early battles, which give you more GGs as Instructors which means you have a even stronger army with those cheap promos as the game progress along.

When against another aggressive civ, It lets your units reach 3-4 promotions so much faster and with that your army will dominate everyone else.

Protective does not give you much when fighting in the open fields.

Cheap promotions apply to ALL unit types which means you can have a much more powerful unit mix, land, sea or air.

If 2 players are equally competent at war in a land map, a Cha+Agg civ will win most of the time.

Against AI, that combo is a rape from the start.

I think that is the reason they are gifting this combo to a civ with the weakest UU and UB combo.

 

[futurehermit]

is cha/agg stronger than cha/pro or agg/pro or cha/imp?
I don't think so.
You were talking about CR3 units. the combat 1 free promotion isn't doing a lot for the CR3 units.
I mean you still need to be level 4, which you won't be faster (except the cheap barracks) with agg.

On the other side, imp/cha will have earlier GG, for more settling opportunities = earlier CR3 units.
And protective gunpowder units are just as good as aggressive gunpowder units IMHO.
So is agg/cha overpowered? not in my opinion.

agg/cha is much, much stronger than those combos imho.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Cha+Agg means you have a equal or stronger army than everyone else from the stone age.

10% stronger unit will up you winning percentage from 50% to 66.7% most of the time when fighing the same unit from other civs.

If you choose to use this army early and you could win 2/3 of the early battles, which give you more GGs as Instructors which means you have a even stronger army with those cheap promos as the game progress along.

When against another aggressive civ, It lets your units reach 3-4 promotions so much faster and with that your army will dominate everyone else.

Protective does not give you much when fighting in the open fields.

Cheap promotions apply to ALL unit types which means you can have a much more powerful unit mix, land, sea or air.

If 2 players are equally competent at war in a land map, a Cha+Agg civ will win most of the time.

Against AI, that combo is a rape from the start.

I think that is the reason they are gifting this combo to a civ with the weakest UU and UB combo.

From a purely warmongering point of view, yes of course it will be the most powerful combo. But there is more to the game than just warmongering, you still have to keep up in tech, an unpromoted mace is still better than a combat V Axe, albeit more expensive.
In the couple of times I've played as Toku who has similar traits IMO I've found it quite a challenge to keep up in techs. The plus 1 happy will help with Boudicca, though it will still be a challenge.
Is there a Creative/Protective leader planned? That would throw a spanner in the works of AGG/CHA

 

[futurehermit]

It's easy to keep up in tech when you have the largest empire...

 

[kniteowl]

From a purely warmongering point of view, yes of course it will be the most powerful combo. But there is more to the game than just warmongering, you still have to keep up in tech, an unpromoted mace is still better than a combat V Axe, albeit more expensive.
In the couple of times I've played as Toku who has similar traits IMO I've found it quite a challenge to keep up in techs. The plus 1 happy will help with Boudicca, though it will still be a challenge.
Is there a Creative/Protective leader planned? That would throw a spanner in the works of AGG/CHA

Heard of the Merchant Economy???

Here's an example in one the ALCs, http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5187457

Makes Warring A LOT less painful to the economy when you have 1000+ gold in the treasury.