Lavra and Great Culture Folks points

[Art Morte]

So, I've been wondering about this decision to give the Lavra one point towards writers, artists and musicians.

I often see the Russia AI have lots and lots of these great people without places for their art.

And if you play Russia yourself, if you build Lavras it almost automatically means you should build theater districts, too, to have places for all that art.

Now, this can be a nice combo, of course. But on the other hand I feel the Lavra's culture people points dictate too much the way you should play Russia. If I build Lavras, it feels stupid to me not to build theaters, too.

What does everyone think about the Lavra giving GPPs of another district, too? A good or bad decision?

 

[Olleus]

Could be fun to give Lavra an adjacency bonus of +1GPP for each speciality district. So if you build a Lavra next to a theatre square, it works as now. But build it next to a campus, you get extra science points.

 

[historix69]

So, I've been wondering about this decision to give the Lavra one point towards writers, artists and musicians.

I often see the Russia AI have lots and lots of these great people without places for their art.

And if you play Russia yourself, if you build Lavras it almost automatically means you should build theater districts, too, to have places for all that art.

Now, this can be a nice combo, of course. But on the other hand I feel the Lavra's culture people points dictate too much the way you should play Russia. If I build Lavras, it feels stupid to me not to build theaters, too.

What does everyone think about the Lavra giving GPPs of another district, too? A good or bad decision?

It is a waste of GP when Russia gets all the early writers, artists and musician and cannot settle them. When a civ is eliminated, all the unsettled GPs vanish and are lost.
And it is not historic at all, if you look at history of Russia which started around 9th or 10th century AD.

Is it only the lavra or is it a combination with Stockholm's trait when Russia is suzerain which causes the massive amount of early GP points?

 

[ezzlar]

Even if you dont play Russia you usually end up with a lot of unemployed writers if you build theaters. With Russia it just becomes too obvious.

But maybe they are striving for realism where all the great merchants and engineers get jobs at once while the artists have plenty of time to explore the regional wine cellars.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Russia having a lot of artists, writers and musicians, but seeing little value in them is very historical to me

Overall, unique gameplay is a key thing in designing civs and lavra looks quite good to me.

 

[Art Morte]

Russia having a lot of artists, writers and musicians, but seeing little value in them is very historical to me

Overall, unique gameplay is a key thing in designing civs and lavra looks quite good to me.

It's fun if you decide from the get-go to go for a cultural victory. The faith can be spent on many things, especially after RnF.

But I feel like I don't want to play any other game but culture game with Russia. Tying the unique faith district so closely with the theater district causes that. It makes Russia a bit boring in the long run, imo. Always the same happens. You build a few Lavras, you get some artists, you want to house them so you build theaters... and then you're on that path.

 

[Softly]

I think Russia is already strong enough and doesn't need any buffs, but constantly having more great works than slots is poor game design. Maybe make the following changes to the Lavra.

(1) No longer gives an additional great prophet point. Russia already gets enough of a leg up on founding a religion with half cost holy sites. It is strange to me that Russia is so much stronger at the religious game than historically pious civics such as Spain, Georgia, Khmer and Poland.

(2) No longer expands borders when you use a great person.

(3) Shrines in this district now provide one great writing slot. Temples in this district now provide one work of art slow. Worship buildings now provide one great work of music slot.

 

[MaryKB]

What I do as Russia is I use my Great People in the Palace early, then sell the Great Works. The AI will pay huge for them! It has helped me in the early game and kept everyone friendly with me.

 

[stealth_nsk]

But I feel like I don't want to play any other game but culture game with Russia. Tying the unique faith district so closely with the theater district causes that. It makes Russia a bit boring in the long run, imo. Always the same happens.

Not all civs are universal, that's part of diversity. Genghis or Shaka are usually played for conquest. If Russia bores you, you could just pick another civ.

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

As Russia I usually prioritize getting Cathedrals for my religion and building the Apadana...the Great Merchant that builds a bank with two slots is useful too.

Even when not playing Russia, though, there just don't seem to be enough slots to go around early in the game if you prioritize Theatre squares.

 

[historix69]

Russia founding an early religion in ancient times is historical nonsense ...
As far as I know they were evangelized by greek orthodox christans from constantinople and when constantinople fell in 1453, they claimed leadership of (now russian) orthodox church with Moscow as new center of the church (3rd Rome). At this time a Civ game is already running for 5.500 years.

In my games Russia often is one of the first civs to found a religion, around or shortly after Stonehenge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Russian_Orthodox_Church
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome

 

[MaryKB]

The game however doesn't go by "What actually happened", but rather "What could have happened" based on the selected traits of the nations and chosen leaders. Russia at the time of Peter the Great was very heavily focused on its religion!

Dark_Jedi06, as Russia myself I like to build the Gurdwara since I find the food bonus very useful in my Tundra cities. Also I like the architectural style of it, which seems fitting for my Russian cities.

 

[historix69]

Inspired by "what happened", Russia could have a trait called "3rd Rome" like :
- Do not found an own religion
- Adopt one religion from your neighbouring civs and spread it in your own cities
- Completely take over this religion with all founder benefits from neighbour civ if this civ is destroyed (by you or others), including Holy City status.

 

[MaryKB]

Remember though that Civilization is a historically inspired strategy game rather than a historical simulator.

 

[historix69]

Remember though that Civilization is a historically inspired strategy game rather than a historical simulator.

You can use this argument also to not give Russia any bonus for founding a religion.

 

[iammaxhailme]

I wish Musicians, Writers, and Artists had a second function like in Civ 5, so I could actually use them as Russia when I'm not going for cultural victory. Althoguh tRussia is strong enough already, and this would be even more...

Although, you always have the option of using the great people to fill the palace's slot, selling the great work to an AI civ for lots of gold, and repeating the process every time you get a new great person. You won't get the tourism, but you can get very rich. Might be good if you're going for religious victory, you can buy lots of shrines and temples once you get your lavras up.

 

[Kwami]

Russia founding an early religion in ancient times is historical nonsense ...

Russia existing as a civilization in 4000 BCE is also historical nonsense. Who cares? Game play trumps realism every time.

 

[Art Morte]

What I do as Russia is I use my Great People in the Palace early, then sell the Great Works. The AI will pay huge for them! It has helped me in the early game and kept everyone friendly with me.

Yes, that is decent use for them, but at the same time doesn't feel quite right to me, somehow. I suppose I don't find it immersive to have side-product great people whose works I only trade away.

Side-question: What happens if you offer someone a great work they have no slot for?

 

[MaryKB]

So far I haven't run into that problem myself, since once I have the Great Work available I seem to be instantly bombarded with ridiculous offers. Imagine if Bradley Cooper started a TInder account.

I feel I can role play that well enough. My people are so great and overflowing with wonder that we will share it with the world. It feels similar to how an artist might license their songs, or museum exhibits will travel around. I don't just trade them all away! Only the excess ones. It happens often as Russia, especially in the early game, where I have Writers and Artists just standing in the snow. I decided one time to just start accepting trade offers, since I could just refill my Palace spot, and suddenly before I knew it I got quite rich.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

My people are so great and overflowing with wonder that we will share it with the world. It feels similar to how an artist might license their songs, or museum exhibits will travel around. I don't just trade them all away! Only the excess ones. It happens often as Russia, especially in the early game, where I have Writers and Artists just standing in the snow. I decided one time to just start accepting trade offers, since I could just refill my Palace spot, and suddenly before I knew it I got quite rich.

Off the backs of starving artists, no less. Tsk tsk tsk

Just kidding. You're the supreme leader. Exploit away