LCP01 - Turkish Invasion!

[LtCowprod]

Yea I think Babylon will be easier and more likely to collapse. They don't have cannons that's for sure and without a medic those things will halt a march quick. I'm going to pillage the roads to Istanbul so we can get the jump on Greece when they retaliate. That might sacrifice 2 horse archers but its better than the collateral damage.

I also expect that research rate will change dramatically when we have a real city. Maybe somewhere in the 30 turn range but who knows. Istanbul has decent beakers once its online.

After looking at your map we have iron already so whenever the trebs get within culture we can upgrade those. That 125% doesn't look so tough against them.

 

[vra379971]

We're going to be good litte Christians I say...and lets take Greece now, and leave our rear to handle Babylon.

 

[LtCowprod]

Okay I played out the first twelve turns and here's where we stand....

After scouting at Istanbul the nomadic tribesman informed us of Greek retaliation. Troops were positioned along the passes to save the main stack from the entourage of cannons enroute. This summed up our decision for war and we set off for Athens. I went against the grain and opted for slavery and vassalage plus christianity. As I didn't want to put the cities through 3 straight turns of anarchy and wanted to get units out quick. Builds were geared towards temples and monastaries to prepare for a Caste switch later.

Spoiler :

We met Almost-Christian Europe (Izzy is islamic ) and had a bunch of one-sided trade offerss like Guilds or Gunpowder for Meditation or Compass. In the end our only decent trade option was with Mali and we picked up Meditation and some gold for Code of Laws. This brought him to pleased and opened borders with him, Joao, and Mr Orange. We had a couple demands later on but the Turks don't fair well with demands so Russia is annoyed with us now. Ragnar was already annoyed, but his vassal Mr Orange is now since I wouldn't give out gunpowder. Buzz off I say!

Spoiler :

Our southern neighbors were upset by our adoption of a heathen religion but already had a planned dinner date with Babylon. England was bribed into war with us, but what a waste of bribery that is ... Our lone trireme was sunk by a caravel while blockading Athens.

In other news Babylon attacked As-Sur and captured it, but a quick counter attack recaptured it the same turn. This was actually beneficial as we got a double culture boost putting it at 60% defense and removing happiness. Worth losing some trivial buildings and 1 population I'd say.

Plague spread throughout most of Europe/Arabia but never did catch us. Well none of our cities. Athens got hit by it and our units started dropping like flies. We lost atleast 2 knights, a crossbow, and a pike so I had to retreat and heal. Luckily Salona (Greek) went Indy so our Western front is now safe. We still should have enough units to take Athens and have 2 Janissaries enroute as well as a Medic II Janissary who's already joined the stack of 4 cannons/2 knights. He's got our first GG attached and is future Medic III if you didn't guess already, too bad all the horsies got lost.

We need to figure out what to do with settlers. Salona is in a good defensible position along one pass and blocking the pass to Russia seems like a wise idea now that he's annoyed, albeit that's only -1 and will change soon. Salona/Athens/Istanbul/Tushpa make 2 cities in the Balkans and Black Sea. I say we use them to complete that goal and wait to put our last city in Anatolia.... wherever that will be. We may can probably ignore the BS tiles there in lieu of a better spot that actually has food.

The new lay of our land looks a little something something like this....

Spoiler :

I think we'll play out 10 turns each unless some major decision making presents itself to the war path.

 

[LtCowprod]

Vra... are you going to wipe out Greece or should Jet do it?

 

[Jet]

Whoever does it, it looked like we were short of units, like 3-4 cannons and a couple stack defenders. Not enough to take out Alex's 4 Longbows or whatever. What did you have in mind?

 

[LtCowprod]

Grabbing Salona should probably be our first interest. If we mess around too long with it Germany will most likely grab that and we'll have to start another war. Surely now that Greece is down to one city it will collapse soon. Although I've no clue what kind of stability handicap the AI has on emperor... maybe they won't.

If Arabia will open borders now we may can use them to deal with the babs sooner. If not a couple janissaries may be needed down there. I whipped a monastary in tushpa so getting missionary out and grabbing theocracy/HR is in order as well.

Not sure about settling in the Balkans, maybe grab Frances Fish between Greece/Salona. But the Black Sea ...I think we should settle on top of the horses. We'll eat up Russias culture, taking the pigs and if they declare we can raze that city from within our borders then make peace.

 

[wolfigor]

Hi guys, your game is really great (wonderfully complex starting setup).
Unfortunately I cannot play with a reliable schedule or I would gladly join the succession game.

However I downloaded your savegames and I will play them with my timing.
Please continue posting...

 

[onedreamer]

[Lurker comment]

I think generally SG should pose a bigger challenge than a Single player game, but Turkish UHV is one of the easiest...
This said, provided you aim for a UHV, it's really unclear why you wanted the capital to be at all costs Istanbul, since it won't be in a central position and generally the capital is good for a research/production development (national/world wonder wise), while Istanbul is the Christian HC, which suggests for a wealth development.
I would have rather razed Khalab on turn 1, since it's utterly useless, and founded Sinop and Sogut (which I normally rename since it's not a city AFAIK).

Suggestion: I would raze Split (too much near the european powers) and found a city on the plains hill north of the General, it shouldn't be hard to steal France's fish.

 

[Jet]

Istanbul isn't the most efficient capital, but it's the coolest.

Khalab didn't exist on turn 1. I believe it was settled and flipped before we had a choice about it.

 

[vra379971]

Feel free to go Jet.

 

[Jet]

0 1400 switched a couple cities to units, I want Greece down.

1 1405 voted YES on stop the war with babylonia - i'd rather take them when we're ready. Researched 1 turn of banking. OB with Mali.

2 1410 the peace passes. Mali is fighting Arabia. Sorry, not now. Invade Croatia on Lt's suggestion. One Guerilla I Janissary moves onto Alex's Iron hill. DR to Egypt for Banking + 20. Then DR + 125 to Hannibal for Compass and Aesthetics. That appeared to be the most practical twofer we could get without drawing it out and risking getting nothing. Paper next, hoping for trade from Charlie. I want to maximize the trade value of DR while we have that slight edge.

Istanbul has a point of Emancipation weariness. OMFG. Turns out Egypt is running it off Stonehenge, clever bastard. At least everyone else is getting a*******d as bad as us. Or so I would assume. (Get it, assume?)

IBT lose Alex-blocking Janissary to a Pinch Musket at 50% and Spain circumnavigates.

3 1415 Revolt to HR+Theo to help with happy and stability and so that we get a promotion out of the units I'm rushing out of no-Barracks cities. Except oops, I'm not drafting them.

4 1420 Hamm asks for war with Arabia (Mali is probably still at war but has lost contact.) If I though there was a chance in hell of Hamm tech trading with us I'd do it, but I don't. [Number of fingers of your choice] to Hammurabi.

5 1425 Culture pressure from Bab is getting bad and I revert eastern cities to culture buildings to stave it off.

German raiders have weakened Salona down to 3 hurt units and I have gunned down the walls, so I take it with no losses. It only has a courthouse. A big German city is nearby and Salona will have stiff competition from Germany and France for food. I start a Christian monastery for culture, not trusting our UP too much. France has Grenadiers.

OB with Ragnar.

7 1435 Meet India, at war with Greece. Alex still has a Seleucid-style city out there. Asoka is not completely universally hated, so OB. The resource trading bug prevents a reasonable trade, but I fiddle with the trading screen for a long time and score
Horse (1 of 2) + Deer (1 of 1) + Clam (1 of 1 but 1 is not hooked up) for Dye + Spice + 5 GPT.
Then he comes back and offers Cow for Wheat (1 of 2) which I take. In hindsight I probably should have waited for him to offer a happy trade but I don't know if I would have done that much better that way.

8 1440 Louis offers Pig for Fish. He has a big scary stack in Pompei and I accept. Charlie offers Literature for Banking, which is insulting since I want Paper, which he's still "not ready to trade" even though many other civs know it.

9 1445 Peter asks for war on Germany. Oddly, he declared on Otto although I strongly suspect Otto outpowers him. Otto has -yes- a big, scary stack in Klagenfurt and I decline. Peter is officially Annoyed. He was probably Annoyed already but now it's official.

IBT Bullhead and his vassals Clown and Pharoah declare. Sweet.

10 1450 decent-sized stack moves next to Athens. Not enough to take it, I don't think; probably needs reinforcements. The Janissaries in the stack should probably be promoted at least to Combat for better stack defense. I would suggest keeping Sogut in a whipping loop at size 5-ish until it runs out of happy (I built a Barracks there) and whipping a couple more units in Istanbul. So far I've been whipping aggressively in all cities to get units and culture up fast. When we can afford it, I think Istanbul should switch to a Library and maybe scientists, since we built the Academy there and all.

Alex has lost his Seleucid city but won't cap (not that we'd want him to.)

Germany is now Annoyed due to close borders. That appears to have hosed my plan to trade him for Paper, which is too bad since we have Banking and Gunpowder on him.

Mali, India, and France don't hate us. Everybody else, pretty much.

 

[Jet]

Oh, and @onedreamer:

A) lah-dee-dah
B) why don't you join the team and show us how it's done?

 

[wolfigor]

I downloaded the first savegame (the very beginning) and I started playing independently... I know it's not really the spirit of a succession game but I didn't really want to intrude.

So, at the beginning I did exactly as you guys.
Do not settle, attack and conquer istambul to make it a cool capital.
Also for me the former roman legion survives against all odds: those guys are really tough.
Some towns flip but Babylon does not declare war against me: this is the main a crucial difference between our games.

I also have to fend several counter attacks... but that's good, it's easier to destoy greeks units staying on the defence.

Feeling safe on the southern border I concentrated all my troops against Greece, every town dedicated to the war effort.
I really needed all possible units because even with a pandemic hitting all the world except me, the Greeks were hard to fix.

They have well experienced and upgraded units that unlike my units don't die by the plague.
Thats' a very bad setbak.
The human cost is umbearable... but I get Athen, and after a while also Solona.
Only Pompei (yes in Italy) remain in Greek hands.

Once won against Greece I need to build better infrastructures, improve economy and do some tech.

Euro powers are very strong and exchange tech with each other... in short time Turkey has few friends and nothing to trade.
This is a huge problem, usually with Turkey I do try to submit others into vassallage.
But in this game I fell too behind in tech to do so.
I got a decent army, lot of xp thanks to vassallage and thocracy, but it will be obsolete in very short time.
How and where I can get a vassal?

The Netherlands offer themselves so I could protect them.
I gladly accept (good luck).
But still it's 1470 and I don't have any town in mesopotamia!

I did bring my fully restored, upgraded, experienced and increased army near the border, one step in and I can bomb their capital.
An other town is up-right, and shiraz not too far.
result: 1495 Mesopotamia is conquered and babylon annihilated.

I do have the territory gains to complete the 1st 2 steps of UHV, and 300 years to get other 2 vassal.
But whom?
France and germany are too strong: bigger and better army, superior tech.
Spain is vassal of France, Egypt is vassal of Germany.

Maybe Arabia is a possible target... hopefully they'll not fight to the bitter end but give capitulation instead.

 

[LtCowprod]

Ok I'm going to play it out in a little bit... unless vra wants to go. It looks like tech rate is going to be some kind of challenge. By the time we start moving on vassal nations they might have infantry... scary. We are going to need currassiers, quick.

In retrospect we probably would've been better to try and get Paper first then bulb Philosophy with our scientist. That would've give us another tech to trade... not to mention knocked out lead ins on Nationalism making it outrageous. Oh well too late for that.


To wolfingor... vassals is usually the trick to this scenario. Most the of the civs that are small enough land wise, will be bigger in pop. Beating them down to capitulation will often make them collapse. In the 600AD start I wiped out Arabia and vassaled them on the respawn. Same with india and Egypt.

In 3000BC the likely candidates are Arabia, Ethiopia, Carthage, India ... historically accurate land wise. Also Mali and even Spain, Netherlands, and Portugal but that would require knocking them down before colonization which is not likely.

 

[vra379971]

Feel free to take this round, will switch after you.

 

[Quildavyr]

Lurker comment:You are doing good job guys.Would you consider join Peter after getting Athen?

 

[LtCowprod]

1450 - We put one more turn into paper hoping for some kind of trade and nothing comes, resume nationalism next turn. Promoted a janissry to hills 1 and another to combat 1. Greece hides behind their walls like cowards.

1455 - The AP votes to stop the war against the Greeks. We can't capture it this turn and defy the resolution taking +3 . I really wish they would change that so you can see the outcome of the vote FIRST. What if they all voted no? Not much to defy then.... </rant>

1460 - Build a missionary for Sogut and whip another for As-Sur, otherwise uneventful.

1465 - Athens falls costing only a cannon and one janissary. The stack reforms to prepare for a march on Babylon. I feel safe about our janissary count and relegate Sogut and As-Sur to cannon duty. I whip our last janissary but a moment too soon as the missionary arrives but fails to spread christianity.

Spoiler :

1470 - With the capture of Athens we're down to 40% research and in dire straits for money. It looks like Peter is going to remain backwards (compared to other civs) and I sell him Banking for 90gold. I also set up gpt trades with Peter (marble), Asoka (iron/wine for cotton/silk/cash), and Joao (fish, i think). Asoka was happy with his new source of ore and canceled the previous horse/dye for spice/cash deal shortly after. I'd rather Asoka not have iron so try to renegotiate that deal after the 10 turns. Money shouldn't be an issue then.

1475-1495 - March units on Babylon and whipped a couple cannons but otherwise allow the cities to grow. Athens comes online shaving 10-15 turns off Nationalism.

1500 - Babylon picked up gunpowder and not a moment too soon, defenses dropped to 85% and I promptly declare war. Two cannons are promoted to Accuracy and the walls start tumbling down. After hiring two scientists in Istanbul, Nationalism is due up in 13.

1505 - Drop the walls to a few % and move the stack across the Euphrates for the invasion. Louis demands clams and we agree.

1510 - Babili falls with the loss of a cannon or two. A great prophet emerges who wants to discover Literature, how useless... looks like he'll get settled in Istanbul. Athens has about 6 settled priests and a general. As-Sur has a settled general as well.



Things are looking up now and we have a stack of 5-6 cannons, 5-6 janissarys, and two knights for cleanup. From the looks of the tech rate cannons and numbers are going to be needed. With enough cannons and promoted Janissaries we should be in good shape. A few more cavalry would be nice though. If we can pull some promoted knights out of the merc pool before hitting Nationalism we should do that. Last I checked there was only an unpromoted camel archer but he is cheap and gets desert movement... might not be bad as a scout.

I stopped whipping when Athens fell to stave off angered slaves. Istanbul is up to pop 9 and we're currently 7th in population. We need to focus on raising that to pick up vassals. Capturing Alexandria should help there since it's generally around size 15 by now... and with a LOT of settled scientists. Hopefully Ramses has taken good care of that place for us.

There's settler waiting in the Balkans to found a town at the clams. It looks like we may flip Germany's pigs but theres plenty of farmland either way for Salona (although I cottaged over it). I'm reluctant to settle near russia right now with the huge stack he has in the border town. He's back to cautious, which doesn't mean much, but if we head for the horses we need a castle and cannons in there ASAP.

Saladin wanted open borders after we declared on Babylon. I imagine we have the force to take him already but he can be scouted now none the less. We need to reinforce Salona and Athens as well as get some MPs in Istanbul. Hammams and markets should solve most of our anger and money problems.

I played an extra 2 turns since a GP was due and Babili was about to fall. The next person can take it out to 1650 to get it even or the end of the Arabian conquest. Whatever feels reasonable. Once nationalism is in we should switch to Nationhood and Caste to try and pick up the science rate. I'm sure we'll always lag behind but we should try to get Mil Tradition/Astronomy soonish. Speaking of which Jerusalum has been razed so we may want to settle the Suez canal 1S of it (still counted as mesopotamia). That will speed things up if we move on Ethiopia.

 

[Jet]

Save, please.

 

[Jet]

If the new Prophet is not settled yet, Athens is an alternative to Istanbul, since Athens has 25 GPT from the settled Prophets whereas the shrine is only 20 GPT. Then Istanbul could run scientists with the Academy and Athens could get the Stock Exchange, if the game lasts that long.

I vote no on Clams city. I can't believe we'll flip the Pigs, since we've already gotten the UP culture bomb and therefore the Saloma culture war should be downhill from here. Even with the Pigs... if we want another cramped city (for population for vassals, say) beyond the ones we'll capture and the Black Sea one we need to found, how about Sparta instead? Sparta would have one food source to itself, or two depending where Alexandria is. (Wait... as of 1400 Alexandria wasn't in his city list, not by that name anyway. Where do you think his Alexandria is, Lt?)

 

[LtCowprod]

Oops the save... here it is. The prophet is waiting in Istanbul. I've yet to do anything with him wasn't sure what he'd bulb after Lit and wanted to check that first. I'm fine with Sparta.

And the pigs... the culture went up 2%. I was suprised myself.