Leader Improvements

[Thalassicus]

It sounds like we should add something to the unique ability then. Would a simple buff like +4 happiness make early conquest more viable? Do we need to buff the Battering Ram? Maybe move it a different tech so it's easier to combine with Horse Archers?

 

[jwerano]

The battering ram seems to be strong enough especially considering it has 4 movement. Maybe making it easier to do horse archers and the ram? Production costs on horse archer are high enough that the player still has to make a tough decision whether or not he wants to make it, a settler, or an early wonder. I don't see a problem with putting it on animal husbandry.

I feel like a flat +4 happiness bonus would be odd. Maybe just -1 happiness in occupied cities or -1 unhappiness for garrisons. Since huns are bound to have a ton of units for garrisoning due to camps.

 

[mitsho]

Can't we give warmongering leaders x free cities to conquer before warmongering penalties hit? ("You, know, it's just his nature!"). Other than that, yes, why not try a simple happiness buff (or a free colloseum to start?).

Generally regarding leaders from looking through the list at the start it feels to me there aren't many left with genuine tall flavour/bonuses. There's Korea with science, Egypt for starters and wonders, there's Siam which works tall but can be played wide just as well... And there's a lot of religion around everywhere in little bits...

Am I missing something, can somebody point me to a genuine "culture" tall leader? (France w its UI is wide, Celts maybe, but again Religion, ... ) I'm at a loss here, but maybe this question belongs to the strategy forum

 

[jwerano]

I always felt france was meant to be tall until late Renaissance or industrial. In order to utilize their UA you really have to race straight for the renaissance and then produce all tourism wonders in their capital. You wont likely be able to do that without the National Colleges and focusing your growth/production in the capital.

Ethiopia is undoubtedly tall and their GP bonus extends to culture GP. I kind of feel like tall is dead due to too much happiness and too much gold for purchasing in the late game.

 

[EricB]

Yeah I agree that there's just too much happiness and gold is too plentiful in the late game. Makes the game too easy.

 

[void_genesis]

For the Huns a possible solution would be to make city razing increase happiness. Maybe a small permanent national increase in happiness for every city razed, and bonus happiness while a city is being razed. This means to play the Huns well you need to keep conquering and razing. It makes them the perfect anti-civilisation.

For Ethiopia I recently played a tall four city cultural game. The unique unit wasn't all that useful. What would be really unique and useful would be a late game unit that can make cultural (or other types of victory) more active in the late game. What about the ability to permanently pillage improvements? No historic reason, just something that would be interesting from a game play perspective.

I have tried Brazil a couple of times and found them difficult to get into. They definitely need something early game to make them stand out. Given their main focus is culture and tourism, maybe something with broader utility would be a food or science bonus on jungle and forest. That way they have an ability to reach the crucial techs in time to have a chance at nabbing the wonders they need.

 

[jwerano]

For the Huns a possible solution would be to make city razing increase happiness. Maybe a small permanent national increase in happiness for every city razed, and bonus happiness while a city is being razed. This means to play the Huns well you need to keep conquering and razing. It makes them the perfect anti-civilisation.

Giving the huns or some warmonger civ a bonus or per population bonus of some sort for razing cities sounds like a very fun idea. I think it also fits the huns better than making them an early conquest civ. I see a slight problem in that neither capitals or city states can be razed but AI civs usually produce a 2nd civ in the ancient era when the huns get their UU.

 

[ShmooDude]

Not really leader improvements but seemed appropriate to put this here. Are samurai supposed to be 32 Strength? That's (based on the spreadsheet) essentially 2 tech levels above where they're gotten, and they get free blitz promotion on top of that (giving them easy access to march, further increasing their survivabilty). They also get open terrain bonus that's separate from the Shock promotion (allowing them to stack)

They pretty much massacre everything up to the industrial era (though lancers can do ok damage vs them if not defend if they get caught but they're just 1 tech shy of the industrial era and 2 tech levels after Samurai). I know UU are supposed to be powerful but I think this is the most powerful one I've come across. Most of the time, if a UU's strength is higher, its only by a little.

I was doing an epic huge map and pretty much conquered my entire continent before anyone had the tech to deal with them.

 

[Kivin]

Giving the huns or some warmonger civ a bonus or per population bonus of some sort for razing cities sounds like a very fun idea. I think it also fits the huns better than making them an early conquest civ. I see a slight problem in that neither capitals or city states can be razed but AI civs usually produce a 2nd civ in the ancient era when the huns get their UU.

Perhaps increase the unhappiness of puppet and annexed cities and give a national happiness increase for razing? Justification: the huns are more interested in burning cities to the ground than installing a stable government in the cities in their warpath.

 

[Babri]

What about the ability to permanently pillage improvements? No historic reason, just something that would be interesting from a game play perspective.

That would suit Mongols or Huns more. Perhaps pillaged tiles longer to repair than usual. Just saying...

 

[void_genesis]

Still thinking about Ethiopia's UU. One possibility to synergise with their gameplay- maybe they could have a dual role as archaeologists? Again....absolutely no historic reason but for gameplay it would give you an extra incentive to build them. A nice strategy- make friends with as many AI as possible. Build a stack of UU, and park them on top of all the antiquity sites around the map. Then set them digging all at once to produce a mass of relics. The advantage- they can defend as they explore, and they can be recalled home to fight if necessary. The military presence should help limit the number of wars you get into as well.......

 

[mystikx21]

That might be an interesting effect, but it would make more historical sense on a British or French unit (might be a decent synergy for a French unit too with their tourism theme). I am also not sure it synergizes well with Ethiopian game play. Tall-religious isn't an inherently tourism based strategy.

 

[void_genesis]

Good thinking....a french UU that can also dig relics (but takes longer to complete it than a true archaeologist) could be good synergy.

I guess the problem with Ethiopia is that their UA is all about being peaceful and having as many friends as possible. That means their UU needs to do something that is related to peace or at least friendship. The defensive war speciality is good in principle but in practice it is relatively rare to have a neighbour invade at just the right time. Maybe the UU could earn faith or exert religious pressure over time when stationed in a AI civ or CS? This would synergise as well with being ready to defend a weak ally. Maybe they could also get a bonus from liberating cities?

 

[mitsho]

...or be upkeep free (and move that promo along to later units). The other proposals work as well but seem quite elaborate, no?

 

[ExpiredReign]

One more leader that needs another look at with regard to the UU is Spain.

The Conquistador that can act as a missionary was a good idea in theory, however in practice it was worse than useless as the "Unwelcome Evangelist" attribute used to enable missionary activity meant it died in the field before it could be used as an offensive unit. This ability has been removed now and it is just the vanilla unit again.

I have never found the vanilla ability of settling new cities on other continents very effective, why build an expensive military unit that may soon become a city?

Perhaps give the unit something like the "Heathen Conversion" ability that converts barbarians to the 'way'?

 

[jwerano]

Good thinking....a french UU that can also dig relics (but takes longer to complete it than a true archaeologist) could be good synergy.

I like this. France Could get access to archaeological sites a bit early and this could replace/supplement the UA or musketeers.

And as for Spain yes they really need some work still. I'd really like to see religion automatically spreading to all new cities as part of the piety tree but if we cant do that then making conquistadors be able to found a city that comes with your religion might be nice as well. That would be unique and fit spain very well.

 

[Babri]

One more leader that needs another look at with regard to the UU is Spain.

The Conquistador that can act as a missionary was a good idea in theory, however in practice it was worse than useless as the "Unwelcome Evangelist" attribute used to enable missionary activity meant it died in the field before it could be used as an offensive unit. This ability has been removed now and it is just the vanilla unit again.

I have never found the vanilla ability of settling new cities on other continents very effective, why build an expensive military unit that may soon become a city?

Perhaps give the unit something like the "Heathen Conversion" ability that converts barbarians to the 'way'?

Hmm... How about conquistadors have insta spread religion at conquering cities + bonus attack Vs heathens or bonus against technologically inferior units.

 

[jwerano]

Hmm... How about conquistadors have insta spread religion at conquering cities + bonus attack Vs heathens or bonus against technologically inferior units.

Or insta spread religion at conqured cities IF you choose the Wrath option or whichever option it is that cuts the population in half. That's flavorful and simulates the effects of a forced religious conversion.

 

[EmeraldViper]

Spain, when it was a big empire, was all about the riches of the new world. This happened because they were the first European major power to cross the Atlantic and settle (and conquer) the continent.
As an idea, the Conquistador could have the ability to cross oceans immediately without astronomy?
Also, as Chivalry is late in the medieval era, maybe the requirement of the unit could be changed to Theology. (But maybe that's too powerful? At least it would be fun )

Or insta spread religion at conqured cities IF you choose the Wrath option or whichever option it is that cuts the population in half. That's flavorful and simulates the effects of a forced religious conversion.

I would like that, but as an UA so it's not specific to any unit (Spanish Inquisition UA?)

 

[ExpiredReign]

Yeah the insta-spread thing was what the original modded unit was going for.
Unfortunately, just using the abilities at hand means you have to give the unit the 'Unwelcome Evangelist' ability which renders it useless as a military unit.

I'm sure there is a way to do it, just not an easy one at the moment.
Anyone that wants to have a go, knock yourself out.