Leader Improvements

[jwerano]

Yeah the insta-spread thing was what the original modded unit was going for.
Unfortunately, just using the abilities at hand means you have to give the unit the 'Unwelcome Evangelist' ability which renders it useless as a military unit.

I'm sure there is a way to do it, just not an easy one at the moment.
Anyone that wants to have a go, knock yourself out.

I really wish I could. I recognize there are so many cool things you guys want to implement that are just too difficult to do. It might be easier to do a free missionary in conquered cities and/or a free missionary and inquisitor spawn in cities where you conquer and use the population reducing option. It would just be using the same effect as the wonder that gives a free missionary in addition to an extra spread.

Or allow spain to be the only civ that can purchase missionaries and inquisitors at the cost of population or food.

 

[Thalassicus]

I'm trying to figure out how the promotion's necessary to spread religion. The code I've found doesn't make any mention of the promotion's effect of "ReligiousStrengthLossRivalTerritory".

Spoiler :

CEL__J_Z.xml

	<Units>
		<Update>
			<Where Type="UNIT_SPANISH_CONQUISTADOR" />
			<Set [B][COLOR="Blue"]SpreadReligion[/COLOR][/B]="1"
				 ReligionSpreads="2"
				 ReligiousStrength="1000"
				 />
		</Update>
	</Units>

CvUnitClasses.cpp

m_bSpreadReligion = kResults.GetInt("[B][COLOR="Blue"]SpreadReligion[/COLOR][/B]");

/// Can this Unit Spread Religion to a City?
bool CvUnitEntry::IsSpreadReligion() const
{
	return [B][COLOR="Blue"]m_bSpreadReligion[/COLOR][/B];
}


bool CvUnit::CanSpreadReligion(const CvPlot* pPlot) const
{
	VALIDATE_OBJECT
	CvCity* pCity;

	if(!m_pUnitInfo->[B][COLOR="Blue"]IsSpreadReligion[/COLOR][/B]())
	{
		return false;
	}

	if(GetReligionData()->GetReligion() == NO_RELIGION)
	{
		return false;
	}

	pCity = pPlot->getPlotCity();
	if(pCity == NULL)
	{
		pCity = pPlot->GetAdjacentCity();
		if(pCity == NULL)
		{
			return false;
		}
	}

	// Blocked by Inquisitor?
	if(pCity->GetCityReligions()->IsDefendedAgainstSpread(GetReligionData()->GetReligion()))
	{
		return false;
	}

	if(isDelayedDeath())
	{
		return false;
	}

	return true;
}

Edit: Wait, why do we think that promotion's needed? I did a test and everything seemed to work without it:

1. Created religion
2. Gave myself a conquistador
3. Spread the religion to an enemy city

 

[mystikx21]

^ Sounds good then for that.

 

[ExpiredReign]

The ability to spread the religion isn't the issue.
It's the unfortunate habit of dying within 2 turns while at war that is.

Unless the unit gets 1000's of faith points to play with, it will succumb to the same fate as the missionary in enemy territory: death.

 

[mystikx21]

If it doesn't have the promotion, it shouldn't be getting hit with the penalty, I think that's Thal's point. If it is getting with the penalty moving through enemy territory, then there's still a problem.

 

[EricB]

I've been playing the new mod with Sweden. Their unique ability is way too strong. You get a free unit on just about every other tech researched. You really don't have to build that many units as so many come for free. I really would like to see that effect toned down if possible. Picking them is like saying "I win!"

 

[jwerano]

I felt that their ability was not quite strong enough or broad enough. You get ONE free unit of every class which is great in the early game but then nothing until the atomic era when you may get a free fighter and a free bomber. The units also dont benefit from barracks experience bonus and only get +10% strength instead of the +20% that your units built with heroic epic get so I felt they were inferior to units built after I already had barracks. Also you have to pay maintenance on these units which can be tough early game.

Sweden is great for Classical era pillaging and conquest, or allowing you to focusing on building early wonders instead of producing units but Classical era conquest is typically undesirable so they have the same problem as the Huns and once you get out of classical their ability becomes insignificant.

 

[Thalassicus]

@ExpiredReign, mystikx21
Yes, I'm saying the "die in enemy territory" effect does not appear necessary for a unit to spread religion. The conquistador appears to work okay with the spread effect, and no "unwelcome evangelist" attribute. I don't know why we thought that attribute was needed.

 

[EricB]

jwerano,

I see what you're saying. I only played through the classical era. I thought it over later and came to the same conclusion. They have their strengths and weaknesses like anyone else.

 

[EricB]

So I went through all of the 43 civilizations in the game attempting to balance them.

I buffed many of them and nerfed a few.

Buffs:

The Aztecs: Added +1 food and +2 production to the Chinampa. Also removed a restriction requiring it to be built next to fresh water to make it more useable and flexible.

Brazil: Increased the length of golden ages by 50%.

England: Restored +2 movement to English ships from the vanilla game. Also, added a Bireme to start the game. The +2 movement, +30XP for ships, and starting Bireme makes England the strongest naval power in the game. (2nd is Carthage) England doesn't have much else though.

Ethiopia: Restored +2 faith to the Stele (was +1 faith).

The Inca: Starts with Mining technology to get them headed towards developing those hills they start around. Also buffed the Slinger making it have more strength so that it's actually a useful unit.

Indonesia: Starts with a Bireme now. Civilian units can also embark (on coastal waters only) immediately allowing them to colonize islands quicker. The Bireme can help protect from barbarians.

The Iroquois: Get a free longhouse in every city allowing this civilization to be a production powerhouse.

Morocco: All land units now start with the Desert Power promotion. It was just civilian units.

Russia: Krepost adds an extra +1 culture and +1 production.

The Shoshone: Increased the strength of the Comanche Riders unit.

Siam: Farms now provide +1 gold in addition to their food benefits. Helps bring in a bit more gold for buying those city states while also still growing tall to reap the benefits of the Wat later on.

Spain: Expanded the usage of the Conquistador unit. Higher combat strength. Siege promotion added. Now able to embark onto ocean tiles immediately (Conquistadors only, not other units). This allows the Conquistador to travel across oceans and conquer cities bringing faith rewards to Spain. Siege promotion is added to help with city conquest along with a higher combat strength.

Venice: Now able to annex cities. Still not able to build settlers. Venice was paralyzed by an inability to expand without puppets. Puppets drain your science and are a parasite on the civilization. I would never acquire city states with the merchant of venice unit because I didn't want puppets, so it was a useless unit.

Nerfs:

Greece: Reduced city state modifier by 50% so Greece isn't so overpowering and owning every city state. Still a significant advantage. They also retain extra culture in every city along with the Odeon and Hoplite.

Sweden: Removed the ability for farms to create production.

I thought about nerfing Babylon and reducing their number of free great scientists down to just 1 (instead of 2), but it looks like the code already does that. I'll have to test that one. Also thought about nerfing Carthage and Austria but left them alone. Everyone else is unchanged.

 

[mystikx21]

Carthage the solution would probably be to remove the free sailing but give them a good buff on sailing (free units, a naval combat bonus, instant harbors, some combination thereof). For some reason that idea didn't go over well in favor of starting with a good tech and a tech that they'd want anyway.

Babylon the code was changed a while ago but the text hasn't been or wasn't updated.

I like the idea on England.

Is it possible to give Venice a "puppet" dummy building that cancels some of the penalties instead of annexation? Otherwise they basically would play like Austria.

Civilian embarking for Indonesia is too much like Polynesia.

Longhouse is a fairly middle-late game building isn't it? That isn't like getting a free smith I thought but it's been a while since I've played them.

 

[jwerano]

England: Restored +2 movement to English ships from the vanilla game. Also, added a Bireme to start the game. The +2 movement, +30XP for ships, and starting Bireme makes England the strongest naval power in the game. (2nd is Carthage) England doesn't have much else though.

England:
I cant help but feel that England is already the greatest naval power in the game and these changes make them Godlike. They are one of my favorite civs but aside from the useful +30xp that gives them naval combat and exploration superiority their true strength is their UB that gives them factory production early, bonus gold, AND allows them to get Ideologies nearly a full era ahead of all other civs in the game, guaranteeing them 2 free tenets in any ideology they want very early to wipeout the happiness problem, or give you a key tenet like 33% reduced unit or building purchases.

Inca and Russia:
I do like how you buffed slingers and strengthened krepost as its not worth building in most cities when it would be most useful, though krepost was recently made more beneficial by the exploration policy that gives a free barracks in all cities albeit a few eras too late.

Indonesia:
Also you are right Indonesia would really be improved if they could get their settlers to embark earlier I find that waiting til I can research the embark technology and then explore a good spot really sets me back as Indonesia so I usually just build on the same continent. I don't mind giving their settlers only embarking. Carthage used to have this ability. I always figured Polynesias embark was for exploration rather than settling but I have never played Polynesia.

Spain:
I just played a quick game as spain, now that their conquistador is fixed they are worth playing and they are a late game faith monster. I accumulated 2000+ faith by conquering the entire Arabian empire across the industrial and modern eras, and 900 faith in the Information era when I took out Moroccos capital. With the changes you made they have all the strengths of Songhai's Mandekalu Cavalry (thus marginalizing Songhai), plus bonus sight, plus the ability to spread faith to cities. I feel Conquistador was pretty useful without your additions though with Missionaries being cheaper for all Civs I guess their faith spread ability is not as valuable as it would have been a versions ago. Allowing them to cross the ocean early and pillage does sound fun but I wonder if that wouldnt make them too strong. Technically with the Exploration opener your conquistadors could also explore the whole map at 5 embarked moves per turn without even having to get astronomy.

It would be nice to see spain have a replacement for the Tercio as it is boring and basically an improved musketeer since its base strength of 26 makes it equally powerful in foreign lands as well as when defending your own territory.

 

[jacktannery]

So I went through all of the 43 civilizations in the game attempting to balance them....

Excellent work. This rebalancing is really necessary in my opinion, in particular aztecs, england, brazil, ethiopia, indonesia and morocco. Although the indonesia addition somewhat mimics polynesia it is distinct enough (no ocean movement; civilians only) that it fits perfectly for me - in any case much needed.

I had not realised swedish farms give production. Certainly it is not written on the leader spreadsheet I use - is it documented anywhere at all? I'm playing as sweden with the latest version of the mod and didn't even notice this!

Hopefully Thal will incorporate all these rebalancing changes into the mod.

 

[Myrion]

I think Venice is the last Civ that needs a change. They're fairly balanced and definitely the most unique. Sure, you have to know how to play really tall - but if you do, they're fun. Also, the MoV helps with befriending CS. If you made it possible for them to annex, they would not be unique anymore and overpowered as well.

Also, as I've already pointed out: Brazil is the strongest Civ in the game, no real need to buff them further.

The rest of EricB's points are very good, however I think that the Stele would be better with 1 faith + 1 faith for every 5 pop in a city (as Ethiopia is supposed to be tall).

 

[mystikx21]

I think Venice is the last Civ that needs a change. They're fairly balanced and definitely the most unique. Sure, you have to know how to play really tall - but if you do, they're fun. Also, the MoV helps with befriending CS. If you made it possible for them to annex, they would not be unique anymore and overpowered as well.

Also, as I've already pointed out: Brazil is the strongest Civ in the game, no real need to buff them further.

Definitely concur on Venice. Adding annexing is just making them into a weird version of Austria.

I'd have mixed impressions on Brazil, but increasing golden age length would not be the idea to improve the perceived weakness that's been discussed (which is leveraging the early game jungle start). All that does is make their actual power (tourism) even more ridiculous.

 

[mitsho]

So I just played as the Ottomans, several observations:

1) They're inner-trade route gives gold doesn't actually give them a net plus on gold. Rather it allows them to run a few inner-trade routes for more production or food while losing less gold than other civs do. That doesn't put you into the red zone and is powerful, but not necessarily for the gold side of things.
2) The loss of the Sipahi leads to a loss of the 2-same-era UU dream team. A Pity, but not decisive
3) The Barbary port seems rather useless as you only need to build it once, afterwards it doesn't give you anything more (true as well for the normal harbor). Further on, it's less useful as their original (GEM) UA: a) it comes later and early bonuses are much better b) the promotion is only given to ships built in that city (while the UA applied to every ships, even the ones you got via this power). This means that you now have to build ships (or be very micromanagey in which ship gives the decisive hit...).

The main weakness I see here is the Barbary Port. I'd suggest that a) the promotion jumps to ships gotten this way and/or b) each Barbary Port provides upkeep for 2 (or 3?) ships. If anything like this is possible of course

Oh, and btw. the Ottomans poll very poor atm in the poll, so they seem to deserve the buff

 

[EricB]

I didn't realize that England's steam mill was available at Steam Power as opposed to Industrialization. I plan on deleting their starting Bireme but keeping the +2 movement and +30XP for ships.

Everyone seems to dislike allowing annexing for Venice. I thought of allowing that because the AI Venice player always seem to be horribly far behind in every game. I've played as Venice before and won big, but the AI is horrible as Venice.

I'm playing a game with Indonesia right now. They don't seem overpowered at all allowing civilians to embark on coastal tiles from turn 1. Still can't cross oceans and military units must wait until Optics to embark. Made them a bit more fun actually.

One of the AI civs was Spain and they really kicked some butt with their Conquistadors when they got them. Spain was a perennially poor AI in every game. It was nice to see them have some success for a change.

I could undo the change for Venice, but I still feel like they are a really weak civ and they need something. The AI Venice players are always so bad.

 

[Ahriman]

Most of EricB's suggestions seem reasonable.

I think with the per-city science penalties that the puppet science penalties may not need to be as severe. I agree that there is a problem with Venice as it stands, but I don't think letting them annex is the answer. Reducing puppet penalties, either for everyone or specifically for Venice, seems better.

I oppose +1 gold for Siamese farms though!

I don't think England needs +2 movement *and* +experience though. I'd get rid of the +experience or dial it back. I think the movement thing is the most important to let them have a scattered coastal empire, so fast embarked units to settle things and to shuffle a military around the oceans are important.

I haven't played Brazil so I have no opinion. Aesthetics tree needs a major overhaul and my views on Brazil will probably depend on what happens here.

 

[jwerano]

I don't think England needs +2 movement *and* +experience though. I'd get rid of the +experience or dial it back. I think the movement thing is the most important to let them have a scattered coastal empire, so fast embarked units to settle things and to shuffle a military around the oceans are important.

I'm a bit concerned about Civs stepping on each others toes too much. Denmark is the civilization that has +2 embarked movement and if we extend the +2 movement to England's land units it makes Denmark less unique. We also talked about giving early embark to Indonesian civilians and I know at one point this was an ability of Carthage, and lets not forgot that this is also overlaps the UA of Polynesia. I recall EricB also giving the conquistadors the siege promotion that Mandekalu Cavalry a UU that is also based on the horse unit from the exact same era no less. If we make changes to a Civ that overlaps with another Civ's UA/UU/UB then I think we should do it with more consideration towards other Civs that have similar abilities so Civ's stay unique.

I prefer Englands +xp to +2 ship movement since I love reaching the double bombardment promotion on my capital ships but I wouldnt mind reverting back too much. I think England is great as they are. Steam Mill is one of the top UBs in the game. My only problem with England is that longbowmen seem not to keep their bonus range upon upgrading and in my England games I dont recall firing a single shot before the longbow becomes obsolete. If people feel England still needs a powerup why not that?

I think with the per-city science penalties that the puppet science penalties may not need to be as severe. I agree that there is a problem with Venice as it stands, but I don't think letting them annex is the answer. Reducing puppet penalties, either for everyone or specifically for Venice, seems better.

I fully support this. Perhaps reducing the science penalty for Venetian puppets so that Venice does not lag behind in tech. I think its currently a 75 or 100% penalty.

 

[EricB]

The problem with Venice is that puppet cities hurt your science rate, and Venice has no way to combat this. They best way is to not acquire puppet cities, which means the Merchant of Venice unit is useless. It would be nice if Venice did not have a science penalty for new cities. Then, puppet cities would marginally help their science rate. I would disagree with changing it for all civs though because then wide, large civs would gain huge advantages over small, tall civs.