Leader traits
- Thread starter T_F
- Start date
Well, the problem with assigning traits to leaders is that we will adhere to much to established traits, either from BtS of FFH. Therefore I propose to list the leaders and add some defining words to them (like courageous, sneaky, easily swayed, whatever) as well as some strategies you think would fit the leader in regards to the game (builder, peacemonger, strong-techer, rusher, whatever). Afterwards we can start thinking about the traits and the names we want to give them.
T_F
Reynardine the Great
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Mm, good idea. Let me churn out a few:
(I seem to be thinking race-based general bonuses rather than individual people ATM, maybe we can dedicate one trait to the general race/civ style and one to the individual.)
Fëanor: Some kind of Aggressive trait. Maybe something about having your units fight better if the enemy has a Silmaril.
Teleri: Sea bonuses of some kind.
Sindar: Bonuses to forest production or for archery units (or to units fighting in forests). Maybe distribute those over the group.
All the Númenóreans (Elendil included) need some sea-based bonuses, maybe an economic one (+gold per sea tile?) for the 'good' ones and a military one (+X strength to sea units?).
Aragorn II - Bonuses for fighting with smaller stacks, or maybe with a smaller overall army? Not a penalty for too big, but a reward for unusually small.
Easterlings and Dunlendings (Silmarillion's 'Easterling' category): Bonuses on raiding tile improvements? I'm thinking focus them more on small raids rather than sacking whole cities.
Sauron - Probably some bonuses on city capture, maybe a reduction in enemy culture.
Morgoth - Bonuses (extra troops/gold/whatever) on razing a city.
(I seem to be thinking race-based general bonuses rather than individual people ATM, maybe we can dedicate one trait to the general race/civ style and one to the individual.)
Fëanor: Some kind of Aggressive trait. Maybe something about having your units fight better if the enemy has a Silmaril.
Teleri: Sea bonuses of some kind.
Sindar: Bonuses to forest production or for archery units (or to units fighting in forests). Maybe distribute those over the group.
All the Númenóreans (Elendil included) need some sea-based bonuses, maybe an economic one (+gold per sea tile?) for the 'good' ones and a military one (+X strength to sea units?).
Aragorn II - Bonuses for fighting with smaller stacks, or maybe with a smaller overall army? Not a penalty for too big, but a reward for unusually small.
Easterlings and Dunlendings (Silmarillion's 'Easterling' category): Bonuses on raiding tile improvements? I'm thinking focus them more on small raids rather than sacking whole cities.
Sauron - Probably some bonuses on city capture, maybe a reduction in enemy culture.
Morgoth - Bonuses (extra troops/gold/whatever) on razing a city.
Some points, if I may
Feanaro
1. The most skilled craftsman ever (Silmarili, Palantiri, etc) - some bonuses to projects/wonders/items, the like of Industrious.
2. Ruthless (can get some combat bonuses coupled with deterioration of diplo relations, e.g. in the form of a unique civic)
3. The most powerful Eldar, along with Galadriel - not sure what to milk from that
Good luck on you Modpack!
Feanaro
1. The most skilled craftsman ever (Silmarili, Palantiri, etc) - some bonuses to projects/wonders/items, the like of Industrious.
2. Ruthless (can get some combat bonuses coupled with deterioration of diplo relations, e.g. in the form of a unique civic)
3. The most powerful Eldar, along with Galadriel - not sure what to milk from that
Good luck on you Modpack!
T_F
Reynardine the Great
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I like those ideas. Better at building awesomeness (maybe items rather than wonders? I forgot what we're doing with items in general), and the more they hate you the better they fight against you. The Silmarils thing I came up with works fine into that if there's a diplo penalty for it; but we'd have to scale it so they get combat penalties if they like you (or don't hate you too bad if it's still unbalanced).
Thanks!
Thanks!
These are the traits included with FFH.
<Type>TRAIT_PHILOSOPHICAL</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_AGGRESSIVE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SPIRITUAL</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_EXPANSIVE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_INDUSTRIOUS</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_CREATIVE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_FINANCIAL</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_ORGANIZED</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_CHARISMATIC</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_ARCANE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_MAGIC_RESISTANT</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_AGNOSTIC</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_BARBARIAN</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_RAIDERS</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SUMMONER</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_DEFENDER</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SPRAWLING</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_INGENUITY</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_ADAPTIVE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_INSANE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_FALLOW</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_TOLERANT</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_DEXTEROUS</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_GUARDSMAN</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_HORSELORD</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SINISTER</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SUNDERED</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_FOOLISH</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_WEAK</Type>
As we are close to adding in the leaders, I'd like to have some discussion on this asap. Which ones are in, which are out. What else niche needs to be filled, what cliche is left undisturbed. And perhaps most importantly: who gets which traits?
<Type>TRAIT_PHILOSOPHICAL</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_AGGRESSIVE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SPIRITUAL</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_EXPANSIVE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_INDUSTRIOUS</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_CREATIVE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_FINANCIAL</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_ORGANIZED</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_CHARISMATIC</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_ARCANE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_MAGIC_RESISTANT</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_AGNOSTIC</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_BARBARIAN</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_RAIDERS</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SUMMONER</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_DEFENDER</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SPRAWLING</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_INGENUITY</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_ADAPTIVE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_INSANE</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_FALLOW</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_TOLERANT</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_DEXTEROUS</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_GUARDSMAN</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_HORSELORD</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SINISTER</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_SUNDERED</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_FOOLISH</Type>
<Type>TRAIT_WEAK</Type>
As we are close to adding in the leaders, I'd like to have some discussion on this asap. Which ones are in, which are out. What else niche needs to be filled, what cliche is left undisturbed. And perhaps most importantly: who gets which traits?
My votes:
Philosophical: IN
Aggressive: IN
Spiritual: OUT
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN
Creative: IN
Financial: OUT
Organized: IN
Charismatic: IN
Arcane: OUT
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: OUT
Barbarian: IN
Raiders (though adapted probably): IN
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: IN
Insane: (don't think we need it, so: OUT)
Fallow: OUT (or do we want to use that mechanism for Morgoth?)
Tolerant: OUT
Dexterous: forgot what it is
Guardsman: IN
Horselord: IN
Sinister: forgot what it is
Sundered: ?
Foolish: ?
Weak: ?
Philosophical: IN
Aggressive: IN
Spiritual: OUT
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN
Creative: IN
Financial: OUT
Organized: IN
Charismatic: IN
Arcane: OUT
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: OUT
Barbarian: IN
Raiders (though adapted probably): IN
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: IN
Insane: (don't think we need it, so: OUT)
Fallow: OUT (or do we want to use that mechanism for Morgoth?)
Tolerant: OUT
Dexterous: forgot what it is
Guardsman: IN
Horselord: IN
Sinister: forgot what it is
Sundered: ?
Foolish: ?
Weak: ?
Berenthor
King
My votes:
Philosophical: IN
Aggressive: IN
Spiritual: IN (even though there are no religions really, there is still a lot of folk believes in both the elves and men)
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN
Creative: IN
Financial: IN (why not?)
Organized: IN
Charismatic: IN
Arcane: OUT
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: OUT
Barbarian: IN
Raiders (though adapted probably): IN
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: IN
Insane: OUT
Fallow: OUT (or do we want to use that mechanism for Morgoth?)
Tolerant: OUT
Dexterous: don't know
Guardsman: IN
Horselord: IN
Sinister: IN (if I remember correctly what it does)
Sundered: MAYBE (for a negative trait, might bring color)
Foolish: OUT
Weak: OUT
Philosophical: IN
Aggressive: IN
Spiritual: IN (even though there are no religions really, there is still a lot of folk believes in both the elves and men)
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN
Creative: IN
Financial: IN (why not?)
Organized: IN
Charismatic: IN
Arcane: OUT
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: OUT
Barbarian: IN
Raiders (though adapted probably): IN
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: IN
Insane: OUT
Fallow: OUT (or do we want to use that mechanism for Morgoth?)
Tolerant: OUT
Dexterous: don't know
Guardsman: IN
Horselord: IN
Sinister: IN (if I remember correctly what it does)
Sundered: MAYBE (for a negative trait, might bring color)
Foolish: OUT
Weak: OUT
Spi: I find that the idea behind it better fits with philosophical for Arda, though we'd probably have to shift the 'no-anarchy'-trait to something else. Could live with it though.
Fin: Why keep it in? I don't think there are leaders that fit this trait really.
Fin: Why keep it in? I don't think there are leaders that fit this trait really.
Sprawling will be needed for Saruman and his only city (to give it 3 rings, though we might want to switch that to his palace...)
EDIT:
the manual has some info on most of them:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=265888
EDIT:
the manual has some info on most of them:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=265888
T_F
Reynardine the Great
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- Jul 31, 2007
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Ah yes.
Well, then -
(I think some of these will definitely need to be modified)
Philosophical: IN
Aggressive: IN
Spiritual: OUT
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN
Creative: IN
Financial: OUT
Organized: IN (but -50% civic upkeep seems unbalanced somehow)
Charismatic: IN
Arcane: OUT
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: OUT
Barbarian: IN
Raiders: IN (great for Dunlendings! Though it's more of a civ trait...)
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN (maybe not as a leader trait)
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: OUT (Unless we think of someone who it would work for)
Insane: OUT
Fallow: We do need to do something for orcs, but IDK if this is how to do it
Tolerant: OUT
Dexterous: OUT (it's kinda pointless)
Guardsman: IN
Horselord: OUT (again, it's a one-off 'all units get blah promotion' thing - more of a civ trait, if we want it)
Sinister: OUT
Sundered: OUT
Foolish: OUT
Weak: OUT
And we forgot:
Defender: IN
Well, then -
(I think some of these will definitely need to be modified)
Philosophical: IN
Aggressive: IN
Spiritual: OUT
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN
Creative: IN
Financial: OUT
Organized: IN (but -50% civic upkeep seems unbalanced somehow)
Charismatic: IN
Arcane: OUT
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: OUT
Barbarian: IN
Raiders: IN (great for Dunlendings! Though it's more of a civ trait...)
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN (maybe not as a leader trait)
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: OUT (Unless we think of someone who it would work for)
Insane: OUT
Fallow: We do need to do something for orcs, but IDK if this is how to do it
Tolerant: OUT
Dexterous: OUT (it's kinda pointless)
Guardsman: IN
Horselord: OUT (again, it's a one-off 'all units get blah promotion' thing - more of a civ trait, if we want it)
Sinister: OUT
Sundered: OUT
Foolish: OUT
Weak: OUT
And we forgot:
Defender: IN
Sifaus
Adramelech
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- Mar 9, 2007
- Messages
- 259
Philosophical: IN -Some Elven leaders?
Aggressive: IN -Probably Evil Man and Other Evil Factions
Spiritual: OUT
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN - Isengard FTW! And dwarves.
Creative: IN -Hmm..
Financial: IN -Dwarves loves golds.
Organized: IN -Definetly Elves and Dwarves.
Charismatic: IN -Numenorean Leaders?
Arcane: OUT -Morgoth can be good btw?
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: IN -Hobbits arent so religious?
Barbarian: IN -Evil Factions.
Raiders: IN -Dunlendings.
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN -Man leaders.
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: OUT -Who we will use it for?
Insane: OUT
Fallow: ?
Tolerant: OUT
Guardsman: IN -Gondor.
Horselord: IN -Rohan.
Maybe we must do some additions here. We certainly need a 'Seafaring' trait for Teleri and Numenoreans.
Aggressive: IN -Probably Evil Man and Other Evil Factions
Spiritual: OUT
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN - Isengard FTW! And dwarves.
Creative: IN -Hmm..
Financial: IN -Dwarves loves golds.
Organized: IN -Definetly Elves and Dwarves.
Charismatic: IN -Numenorean Leaders?
Arcane: OUT -Morgoth can be good btw?
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: IN -Hobbits arent so religious?
Barbarian: IN -Evil Factions.
Raiders: IN -Dunlendings.
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN -Man leaders.
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: OUT -Who we will use it for?
Insane: OUT
Fallow: ?
Tolerant: OUT
Guardsman: IN -Gondor.
Horselord: IN -Rohan.
Maybe we must do some additions here. We certainly need a 'Seafaring' trait for Teleri and Numenoreans.
Tally so far:
I'd suggest to drop the ones in the categories 'Probably not' and 'Out' and try to give every leader 2 traits (some can have three, depending on leader and specific traits).
Also, based on T_F's post, I'd like to suggest the following two traits to be added (exact details open for discussion, but you should be able to get the gist of it from the name):
- Seafaring
- Skirmisher
(Of course, all traits are open for (small) changes, but I'd like to get the rough lines done, so we can start on the leader-xml)
Spoiler :
I'd suggest to drop the ones in the categories 'Probably not' and 'Out' and try to give every leader 2 traits (some can have three, depending on leader and specific traits).
Also, based on T_F's post, I'd like to suggest the following two traits to be added (exact details open for discussion, but you should be able to get the gist of it from the name):
- Seafaring
- Skirmisher
(Of course, all traits are open for (small) changes, but I'd like to get the rough lines done, so we can start on the leader-xml)
T_F
Reynardine the Great
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- Jul 31, 2007
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That'll be good, if we can get enough flavour with just 2 traits (and not unbalance the ones with 3).
I do think some of the bonuses/specializations that are effects of these traits would be better as modifiers to the civs rather than the leaders. I think two traits is barely enough for differentiation, and if one of those slots gets filled by a civ trait you're down to 1, unless you allow 3 for these kinds of civs. (Like if Théoden is stuck taking Horselord, he only gets one chance to be unique.)
IDK if you can add 'civ traits' (I would think you can though), but if you can't then you most certainly need to allow 3 slots for any leaders with whole-civ traits attached to them.
Seafaring is obvious, but which one is Skirmisher?
And only two? Do the FFH traits really work that well for us? (Or do you not mean 'add only these two'?)
Berenthor
King
FFH supports Civ-specific traits so there is no problem there. We can give specific traits like horselord to a civ and then still have every leader have two traits. I'll post an excel sheet with all the leaders, civs and traits in it that we can fill in on the way so we get a good overview along the way.
Berenthor
King
I put everything related to leaders and civs in an excel sheet with some ideas already. Please add some stuff in that one and post it again. It is in the team forum discussion about the leaders.
Horselord and other Civ-traits are going to be relatively small as to not interfere with other traits (so Theoden will get 2 traits on top of the civtrait).\
And I meant at least those two, as I couldn't think of terms for the others (also, I'd like to see every trait used at least twice). Skirmisher is meant for your Aragorn II suggestion, though I'm not completely sure how I'm going to implement it. Also note that a couple of your suggestions are decently covered with the FFH traits.
And I meant at least those two, as I couldn't think of terms for the others (also, I'd like to see every trait used at least twice). Skirmisher is meant for your Aragorn II suggestion, though I'm not completely sure how I'm going to implement it. Also note that a couple of your suggestions are decently covered with the FFH traits.
