• Civ7 is already available! Happy playing :).

Leaders that you would not want to have in civ 7 (until you think about it and they are strangely appealing)

I'll list some of my personal fave "atypical" leaders (and I may do more if there's interest), with a word of who they are and why they are interesting :)

TAYTU BETUL (Ethiopia)
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The adage of "Behind Every Great Man, There's A Great Woman" reaches its Zenith with Taytu Betul, the spouse of Menelik II. Menelik, who we know from his appearance in Civ6, is arguably the most effective Ethiopian monarch. Part of the reason for that was the support he received from his wife. Noted to be cunning, ambitious and difficult to please (as well as unwaveringly loyal to her husband and the country of Ethiopia), Taytu Betul proved herself to be a shrewd negotiator (it was she who scrutinized and then repealed the Treaty of Wuchale, which ultimately led to Italy's failed attempt to subjegate Ethopia and the Battle of Adwa), a capable leader (She commanded a battalion of her own troops in the battle of Adwa), and a woman of action as well as words (the new capital city of Addis Ababa was settled under her command). She was also a highly skilled player of Ethiopian chess. Additionally, as an ethnic Oromo of Muslim background, her marriage helped consolidate Ethiopia as a unified regional power. She was powerful (and annoying) enough for the Italians to launch smear campaign after smear campaign to villify her for her role in Italy's failed colonization attempt. In reality, she was just kind of really good at playing the game of thrones despite being black and female and some individuals found that hard to accept, I guess 🤷‍♀️. If consorts make worthy Civ leaders (and they are - as proven by Eleanor and CdM), she should be at the front of the queue.


VOLTAIRE (France)
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France hardly has a shortage of great leader options. Charlemagne and Louis XVI, Cathérine de Medici and Eleanor of Aquitaine, Joan of Arc... and that's without delving into Clovis, Mazarin, Richelieu, Philippe Auguste, Vauban and many others. However, on this occassion, I will advocate Voltaire, a choice who is similar to the French as Benjamin Franklin is to the Americans. Like Franklin, Voltaire embodies the core values that made his country what it is - a political philosopher and prime advocate for liberalism, free speech and secularism, as well as a notable playright and satirizer, Voltaire outfrenches any French leader choice, with his writings and political theories maintaining relevance decades after his death.


ARWA AL-SULYAHI (Arabia/Yemen)
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The beauty of unclipping leaders is that several worthy choices become more viable. Arwa al-Sulyahi, who ruled the Yemeni Sulayhid Kingdom from 1074 to her death 1138, is a great example of this. Arwa represents the rare female monarch of the islamic world, with the even rarer distinction of being beloved and respected by her peers - allowing her to inherit the Sulayhi kingdom as its sole monarch after the death of her spouse (and before that as its defacto leader as her ineffective husband would delegate most of his tasks off to his wife). Her talents at governants, as well as her piety, earned her the distinction of being the ONLY female islamic monarch to have the khutbah (a declaration of dedication for the monarch that started islamic religious services at the time) proclaimed in her name. During her reign ,she patronized agriculture and send Shi'a missionaries to India, which in Civ terms makes her a natural choice for a leader who excels both at population growth and religious spread. Arwa passed away at the ripe of age of 90 and is to this day a respected historical figure in Yemen. (the university of Sana'a was named on her honour)

NUR JAHAN (Mughal India)
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Another beneficiary of the "unclipped leaders" policy, is Nur Jahan, the wife of the somewhat ineffective Mughal emperor Jahangir, who kindly ran his empire for him. Nur Jahan is probably the most powerful woman in Indian history until Indira Gandhi, but is a more of less awkward fit for an Indian leader as she herself isn't ethnically Indian (not that "ethnically indian" isn't a Trump's Ego-sized umbrella term in itself, but I'm not opening that can of worms). A Persian princess who married into the Timurid dynasty, Nur Jahan was born in Kandahar and likely spoke Dari as her native language. She is nevertheless a fascinating character, worthy of Civ inclusion. As queen consort she was generous patron of the arts, taking a particular interest in apparel (she is credited to have created, or at least popularized several textiles, such as the Nurmanhali dress) and architecture (she built many sarais and gardens for weary travellers to rest in). She herself was a shrewd and effective politician with a penchant for hunting (her hobby of hunting tigers is well documented). If Ed doesn't know about her yet, he should do asap. Once he's done drooling over her wikipage, he can have @Andrew Johnson [FXS] put together a case file on her, to prepare for her upcoming inclusion in Civ7's first post-release DLC.

ZHENG HE (China)
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Like France, China has no shortage of excellent leader choices, and Zheng He is near the top of the list of non-monarch leaders, alongside Sun Tzu and the already included Confucius. Zheng He was a eunuch in service to the Yongle Emperor (whom we all know and love from Civ6), and is the most accomplished naval commander in Chinese's history. Zheng He's most notable achievements are the seven treasure voyagers he completed under the Yongle Emperor and his successor, bringing back riches and information, while flexing China as a naval superpower. Aside from his exploits, Zheng He also has an interesting backstory. He was a direct decendant of the Khwarezmian governor Kublai Khan established as governor of Yunnan, and yet helped the Ming conquer Yunnan from its Mongol owners. His friendship(?) with the Yongle emperor whom he faithfully served since his teenage years is also well attested. If we want a Chinese leader with a naval flavour who is also good at raking in money and earning science, Zheng He is that choice :).
 
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I'm a Christian myself, but there's pretty strong evidence that the United Kingdom is a rather romantic, Persianized take on what was probably a petty chiefdom that extended little beyond Jerusalem. If David existed, he was more of a warlord than a king. As for Esther, there's no evidence of such a person existing. I don't think reading the Bible literally produces a better reading of Scripture; indeed, it frequently produces a reading that would have baffled the original writers--like the aliens on Galaxy Quest who thought TV shows were documentaries. (And it's often a convenient way to focus on irrelevant details rather than truths that would require one to make difficult life decisions--e.g., it's much easier to talk about whether a person can be swallowed by a fish than to confront the fact that God loves whomever you hate the most. Or as my pastor once put it, "Trying to find Noah's Ark instead of trying to rid the world of violence is an exercise in missing the point.") The Book of Esther is almost certainly what we'd call historical fiction. The need to prove the entire Bible factual as well as true is a very modernist impulse.

I'm certainly not trying to argue for taking the bible literally. Rather, I'm trying to say that the bible isn't pure fiction. It's usually at least based on historical events.

(note: I might mess up the spelling of a few names, English loves changing them instead of going with the best available transliteration of the original names...)

Taking an atheist stance, it's silly to consider the bible factual, with (and let's ignore Genesis here because I think it's silly from any viewpoint to argue for taking it literally) the Israelites marching around Jericho to make it's walls fall, Jona surviving in the stomach of a whale for three days, or the many miracles performed by Jesus. And the easy impulse then becomes to set the entire thing aside as fictional, but that's not fair either. That's why I brought up David and Solomon as having archeological evidence backing up their existence - even if the bible likely exaggerated their achievements, it didn't straight up make them up. I don't think it's unwarranted to extend that line of thinking to other aspects of the bible - whether it's king Achab, the Babylonian exile, the rebuilding of Jerusalem after the exile, or indeed Esther.

The Book of Esther, from an unbiased viewpoint (or as best as I can approach that...), is evidence that the person Esther likely existed and probably played some role in protecting a Jewish population from genocide. It might not have been the entire Persian empire. She might not have been the (primary) wife of the ruler. Mordechai's story might be made up entirely. But Esther was almost certainly a historical figure who protected Jewish minorities.

And that puts her on the same level as Gilgamesh, Dido, Himiko and so on in terms of viability for being a leader in Civilization.
 
Before the announcement I felt like I wouldn't like an artist as a leader, but as a filmmaker now I feel obliged to play as an artist first if any is included :p

Also, as a Pole, there is certain appeal and yet doubt I have with potential Marie Curie-Skłodowska. I guess she had some leadership traits in her life and she's among the most famous Poles (and more of a Pole than Copernicus technically?). But I just know they're gonna go only with her French surname if they pick her and I'd hate it to a degree... (Though I want to see a Polish leader at all so I dunno if I should complain - it's not like I'm entitled and guaranteed to get base game full package with Sarmatians or something :v).

Also Plato would be great.
Marie Skłodowska Curie might be the best pick in this thread, though Rasputin is absolutely up there for me.

Plato's a strong choice as well. In terms of personality, though, Socrates is almost too hard to resist.
 
The Book of Esther, from an unbiased viewpoint (or as best as I can approach that...), is evidence that the person Esther likely existed and probably played some role in protecting a Jewish population from genocide. It might not have been the entire Persian empire. She might not have been the (primary) wife of the ruler. Mordechai's story might be made up entirely. But Esther was almost certainly a historical figure who protected Jewish minorities.

And that puts her on the same level as Gilgamesh, Dido, Himiko and so on in terms of viability for being a leader in Civilization.
Quite strongly disagree. All evidence points to Esther being historical fiction, and modern Biblical scholars are in almost universal agreement on that point. Persian kings didn't take foreign wives; there is no evidence of Persian laws being immutable; and Xerxes' queen is known to have been Amestris, not Vashti or Esther. If there is any kernel of historicity to the events, it was on a much smaller scale than the royal palace. (Though, I will say, that the author of Esther was at least familiar with Persia and its court...unlike the author of Jonah and the Assyrian plains.) She'd be much more akin to Romulus leading Rome than to Gilgamesh or Dido. (Possibly closer to Jupiter leading Rome, if the theories that the story of Esther is a Judaicization of an Ishtar myth are correct, but I personally find such theories unconvincing--even though it wouldn't be the first time, e.g., the Flood account is clearly a Jewish commentary on Utnapishtim. I admit that the explicit connection of Mordechai = "man of Marduk" is compelling, but I think it's much likelier that Esther comes from Old Persian stār, "star," simply from a phonological perspective.) Esther is, IMO, the most beautiful story in the Bible, and like all good stories it is true--but that doesn't mean I think it's historical fact. No story's value comes from its historicity.
 
Moderator Action: Back to topic please.

Darn you, I typed out a very long message and then you ninja'd me lol.

Oh well, back to topic.

Esther still counts for me, and I'll leave it at that.

Mentions of characters like Rasputin made me think... we shouldn't be looking at achievements first and foremost. We should be thinking about personalities. We get to take a personality and they guide a people through history. And yes, achievements often lead to an interesting personality (Napoleon, Alexander, Augustus, you name 'em), but other things can, too. In addition to figures like Rasputin, Karl Marx and Cicero, which have already been mentioned before, there are a number of figures that were in previous games that arguably fit better in Civ VII than in the game(s) they were included. Think Bismarck, Theodora, and let's be real, Gandhi too. He's a perfect fit for Civ VII's 'but what if this person was actually in charge?' outlook. And on top of that, the decoupling from civilizations means it's far less awkward to include figures like Charlemagne or William the Conqueror, as you don't need to awkwardly attach them to a civilization - although ironically we get the Normans as well thanks to the extra granularity in what's depicted for every era.

After several minutes of wracking my brain I have to admit defeat and acknowledge that my historical knowledge isn't good enough to suggest interesting characters along the lines of Rasputin myself, but I'd love to see more suggestions in that direction.
 
Darn you, I typed out a very long message and then you ninja'd me lol.

Oh well, back to topic.
If you still have it, you could send it to zaarin via PM?
Sorry, back to topic.
 
If you still have it, you could send it to zaarin via PM?
Sorry, back to topic.

I did in fact use Ctrl+X to get rid of it instead of backspace, so I guess I could do that.
 
Esther still counts for me, and I'll leave it at that.

Mentions of characters like Rasputin made me think... we shouldn't be looking at achievements first and foremost. We should be thinking about personalities. We get to take a personality and they guide a people through history. And yes, achievements often lead to an interesting personality (Napoleon, Alexander, Augustus, you name 'em), but other things can, too. In addition to figures like Rasputin, Karl Marx and Cicero, which have already been mentioned before, there are a number of figures that were in previous games that arguably fit better in Civ VII than in the game(s) they were included. Think Bismarck, Theodora, and let's be real, Gandhi too. He's a perfect fit for Civ VII's 'but what if this person was actually in charge?' outlook. And on top of that, the decoupling from civilizations means it's far less awkward to include figures like Charlemagne or William the Conqueror, as you don't need to awkwardly attach them to a civilization - although ironically we get the Normans as well thanks to the extra granularity in what's depicted for every era.

After several minutes of wracking my brain I have to admit defeat and acknowledge that my historical knowledge isn't good enough to suggest interesting characters along the lines of Rasputin myself, but I'd love to see more suggestions in that direction.
They are rather obviously going for the Non Leader Leader concept, utilizing 'iconic' personalities from all walks of life rather than 'real' political leaders only.

After Civ VI, this shouldn't really surprise anybody.

Furthermore, after seeing even the partial early lists of 'Leaders' in ARA, it shouldn't surprise anybody too much: like Civ VII's early names, ARA rather completely went for a mix of personalities, icons, famous or noteworthy people regardless of any political or any other 'leadership' role they might have had.

- And history is chock full of 'interesting personalities' or, as I like to call them, Complete Nutters or, quoting the Pythons: "And Now for something completely Different -".

For example, if you want someone as completely Unbelievable as Rasputin (and at least as bad an influence on events around him) look up Alcibiades of Athens. He would be my First Pick for a 'Leader' designed to make the average Gamer tear his hair out and beat his head against his keyboard . . .
 
For the Netherlands : Erasmus
Erasmus, was a Dutch Christian humanist, Catholic priest and theologian, educationalist, satirist, and philosopher. Through his vast number of translations, books, essays, prayers and letters, he is considered one of the most influential thinkers of the Northern Renaissance and one of the major figures of Dutch and Western culture.
Erasmus lived against the backdrop of the growing European religious reformations. He developed a biblical humanistic theology in which he advocated the religious and civil necessity both of peaceable concord and of pastoral tolerance on matters of indifference. He remained a member of the Catholic Church all his life, remaining committed to reforming the church from within.
He traveled all over western Europe and was respected by almost everyone.
In the Netherlands the University in Rotterdam was named after him as well as the EU Erasmus programme to support education, training, youth and sport in Europe.
 
For example, if you want someone as completely Unbelievable as Rasputin (and at least as bad an influence on events around him) look up Alcibiades of Athens. He would be my First Pick for a 'Leader' designed to make the average Gamer tear his hair out and beat his head against his keyboard . . .
Spoiler :
Expect him to show up in my second post, if I get around to making it. :evil:
 
Georgy Zhukov for Russia (but looks like Jason Isaacs)
He's the best known of Soviet generals, but let me throw out some more 'eccentric' types from the same group:

Issa Aleksandrovich Pliev - an Ossetian Soviet cavalry commander who commanded the 1st Guards Cavalry-Mechanized Group, an army-sized mobile force in the last year of the war, and then after the war, having been promotedt to Army General (4 stars equivalent) he commanded the Soviet missile units sneaked into Cuba that started the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. Talk about a Career Move. He is one of the main historical commanders who legitimately could add Bonus Movement to his units: his horse cavalry units could move faster than fully-mechanized units when necessary, and he and his units spent so much time operating behind what the enemy thought was the front line that he won two awards of the Hero of the Soviet Union, the only cavalryman to achieve that.

Konstantin Konstantinovich Rokossovskii. They claimed he was part-Polish, because he was born in a part of Russia that later became part of Poland, but that was Soviet Fiction. He was probably one of the best tacticians the Soviet military produced, and in direct contrast to Zhukov, Rokossovskii was the 'polite general' - Georgiy was an ex-cavalry sergeant (in the First World War) who would cuss you out at full volume. Konstantin not so much, but he could accomplish more with fewer forces than anybody. He once ran an army from the sidecar of a motorcycle, and on another occasion sent heavy self-propelled assault guns through a swamp that the Germans thought was impassable to anything bigger than a farm cart. Always surprising.
 
Ok I got a few

St. Gregory the Illuminator (He was the main driver in converting Armenia to Christianity, Tiridates III was at first opposition that eventually bend the knee)
Saigo Takamori
Tomoe Gozen
Marie Antoinette
Maximillian Robespierre
El Cid
John F Kennedy
Gaiseric
Antonin Artaud (I swear this is not a reference to a particular Hearts of Iron IV Mod)
Minos
Romulus
Pelagius of Asturias (The origins of Spain was very humble. Just a King of a small Kingdom and a few hundred people. In a way he embodies the idea of Civ as a whole, same with Romulus above)
Archimedes
Hong Xiuquan
Orélie-Antoine de Tounens
Lalla Fatma N'Soumer
Arminius but under the name "Herman The German"
Ned Kelly
Giuseppe Verdi
Mark Antony
Agamemnon
Hector of Troy
Karađorđe
Vlad Tepes III
Sargon of Akkad
Pope Urban II
Pope Gregory IX
Pope Leo X
Martin Luthor
Marcus Gravey
Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II
Holy Roman Emperor Charles V
Holy Roman Emperor Otto I
Holy Roman Emperor Charlemagne
Scorpion II
Jan Hus
Joseph Smith
Nicolas Fouquet
Marco Polo
Chief Buffalo Hump
Heshen
Adam Weishaupt (Illuminati confirmed?)
Aleister Crowley
Lushan Huiyuan
John Brown
Robert E Lee
Avicenna
Jacques de Molay
Cao Cao
Charles the Mad
Hasan-i Sabbah
Empress Sissi
Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington
Emperor Shang of Han (Died as a 1 year old baby)
Philip of Rouvres
Alexios V Megas Komnenos
Dangun Wanggeom
Charles Jeanne
Billy Bishop
Manfred von Richthofen
Louise of Mecklenburg-Strelitz

There is a part of me that really wants to say F*** it, let's have 20st century's most controversial leads Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Mao Zedong in.
 
Since this seems to be the "non-leader leader" thread, Zitkala-Ša would make an interesting choice for a hypothetical Lakota civ.
 
For example, if you want someone as completely Unbelievable as Rasputin (and at least as bad an influence on events around him) look up Alcibiades of Athens. He would be my First Pick for a 'Leader' designed to make the average Gamer tear his hair out and beat his head against his keyboard . . .
I loved his depiction in Assassin’s Creed Odyssey! He’d be a perfect choice!
 
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