Leaders that you would not want to have in civ 7 (until you think about it and they are strangely appealing)

Australia - Steve Irwin
Leader Ability: Crocodile Hunter
Units from outside your civilization receive damage when traveling through Navigable Rivers in your territory. :lol:
Aside from being relatively recently dead, Tolkien was a very private man. I don't think he'd appreciate being made a civ leader. Lewis, on the other hand...(For a writer leader of England, Dickens is the obvious choice, but I think Jane Austen would be fun, especially if she made sarcastic comments about all the other leaders.)
It would also definitely be the most ironic choice by making him the leader of a very likely industrialized British civ.
He'd probably rather love to get on a boat and go to a Maori dominated New Zealand. :mischief:
 
I nominate Robert Smith to lead the Goths

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Thought of a couple more

1. Nero- Instead of a heavy infrastructure Roman leader, how about an anti-structure one?

2. Robespierre-If you have too much unhappiness in your population, build a Guillotine UI, which will get rid of unhappy parts of your population. :shifty:
 
1. Nero- Instead of a heavy infrastructure Roman leader, how about an anti-structure one?
I think Commodus would be a hilariously entertaining leader. Give him a bonus to happiness from entertainment buildings and population but a penalty to happiness from government and religious buildings. :lol:
 
There is only one person I thought of who really fits the bill for this thread in particular, and it's Zoroaster.

Edit: Frederick Douglas and MLK Jr. could work as well. And since we're tossing up some never-going-to-happen options, I'll suggest John Brown just because. But Firaxis, you've gotta understand, him and Battle Hymn of the Republic on the soundtrack are a package deal!
 
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There is only one person I thought of who really fits the bill for this thread in particular, and it's Zoroaster.
I'd love to hear a leader speaking Avestan. :D But he'd be difficult to connect to a civ even obliquely since the civilization connected to the Avesta is still uncertain, though they were probably located in Afghanistan.
 
He doesn't bring much to the table personality-wise, I'd rather G.K. Chesterton for a Britain-associated leader and Oscar Wilde for for an Ireland-associated one
If we're going to make an English writer a leader in the game, it has to be Shakespeare.

Twain, Poe, and Voltaire would all be excellent picks as well, but their countries-of-origin are already accounted for.

Tolstoy, though, is 100% available.
 
Both fascism and communism are inherently violent, though. Deflecting to "well, other religions have been distorted to be violent in the past" is a frankly ignorant point when fascism and communism were devised to be violent as a feature, not a distortion of the original message. Also, no traditional religion has been used to exercise violence on a scale comparable with fascism or communism. And whereas traditional religion has also brought a great deal of good and beauty to the world, the same can't be said of modern ideological religions.
Don't know why we're fine with colonial/imperial leaders in general then, considering that is the single most direct and consistently violent form of statehood that has been present for millenia

Orr if we're doing the "inherently violent" argument, then we just circle back to the definition of a state itself, vis a vis monopolies on violence....
 
Don't know why we're fine with colonial/imperial leaders in general then, considering that is the single most direct and consistently violent form of statehood that has been present for millenia

Orr if we're doing the "inherently violent" argument, then we just circle back to the definition of a state itself, vis a vis monopolies on violence....
Maybe before necromancing an argument you should have read the mod warning literally two posts below the one you quoted. :rolleyes:
 
Before the announcement I felt like I wouldn't like an artist as a leader, but as a filmmaker now I feel obliged to play as an artist first if any is included :p

Also, as a Pole, there is certain appeal and yet doubt I have with potential Marie Curie-Skłodowska. I guess she had some leadership traits in her life and she's among the most famous Poles (and more of a Pole than Copernicus technically?). But I just know they're gonna go only with her French surname if they pick her and I'd hate it to a degree... (Though I want to see a Polish leader at all so I dunno if I should complain - it's not like I'm entitled and guaranteed to get base game full package with Sarmatians or something :v).

Also Plato would be great.
 
You have to remember that We are on a early 2000 forum for a english speaking audience, for a lot People here colonization is not that of a big deal.
So an australian leader that wanted an Australia for the White Man is fine for ex

Ignoring the matter of how much validity your argument has the first place (let's not draw modly ire again), I do not see how this would be relevant anyway.

Civilization's goal is to play history, play through history, and play with history. Not just the good parts. All the parts. Europe's colonial powers ruled almost the entire world between them, and were enormously influential through that and even after the mass independence movements across the world, the colonial history still shines through across the Americas and Africa in particular. Colonization, and it's most influential figures, should be in the game, simply because it's so important in history.

Leaders (and civilizations) should not be picked based on how much we like them, or how moral they were, but rather the influence they had.

For example, I consider communism to be a terrible ideology that almost guarantees widespread power abuse and worse, but Karl Marx as a leader? I'd love it! Because that man has had an incredible impact on political thought across the modern era.

I'd rather see Ferdowsi than a fictional foreign queen.

I would like to point out that the bible tends to (at least in the basics) be rather more accurate on history than most people assume - for example, there is good proof that David and Solomon existed (although Solomon's wealth is likely exaggerated), and there is even an argument to be made in favor of the Israelites having been slaves in Egypt, although that is by no means a settled debate.

That said, I agree that Esther would be a bad choice as leader of Persia. But the thing is... we don't have leaders associated with specific civilizations anymore! And Esther would make a good leader if you look at her association with the Jews instead.

Speaking of which, I think Civ VII's design would make it a lot more doable to represent Israel/the Jews without being too controversial than any previous game - you could either have Israel as an Antiquity civilization (thus clearly separating it from modern Israel), or indeed have Esther as a leader without any specific Israel civilization (because that doesn't need to be 1-to-1 anymore, either). Perhaps she could even have thematic bonuses towards protecting minorities or something like that - after all, her story is traditionally considered to be the first time Jewish genocide was attempted.

(I say "traditionally considered" because the bible also says that Egypt was killing all Israelite boys on birth in Moses' time, which is also a form of genocide)

This is a terrible, terrible, terrible idea

Aisha is actually quite an interesting historical character, and she was very influential in spreading Islam.

That said, it's probably far too easy for online discourse to completely degrade if she's included...
 
I would like to point out that the bible tends to (at least in the basics) be rather more accurate on history than most people assume - for example, there is good proof that David and Solomon existed (although Solomon's wealth is likely exaggerated), and there is even an argument to be made in favor of the Israelites having been slaves in Egypt, although that is by no means a settled debate.

That said, I agree that Esther would be a bad choice as leader of Persia.
I'm a Christian myself, but there's pretty strong evidence that the United Kingdom is a rather romantic, Persianized take on what was probably a petty chiefdom that extended little beyond Jerusalem. If David existed, he was more of a warlord than a king. As for Esther, there's no evidence of such a person existing. I don't think reading the Bible literally produces a better reading of Scripture; indeed, it frequently produces a reading that would have baffled the original writers--like the aliens on Galaxy Quest who thought TV shows were documentaries. (And it's often a convenient way to focus on irrelevant details rather than truths that would require one to make difficult life decisions--e.g., it's much easier to talk about whether a person can be swallowed by a fish than to confront the fact that God loves whomever you hate the most. Or as my pastor once put it, "Trying to find Noah's Ark instead of trying to rid the world of violence is an exercise in missing the point.") The Book of Esther is almost certainly what we'd call historical fiction. The need to prove the entire Bible factual as well as true is a very modernist impulse.
 
Aisha is actually quite an interesting historical character, and she was very influential in spreading Islam.
She is, but I would correct you just on the little point that her influentialness (?) is due to her extensive recording of the prophetic traditions and being a teacher of the earliest Islamic jurists.

The reason she is a terrible choice for a leader is because of the taboo on portrayals of certain Islamic figures. And on the other hand she is a major villainess in the Shiite narrative. So you just end up alienising and turning off a not insignificant segment of the playerbase for no good reason. No good reason because there are plenty of influential and frankly awesome female figures from pre-Islamic and Islamic Arab history: Mavia, Šamsi, al-Khayzuran, Rasad, Sitt al-Mulk...
 
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